rental scene?

[lordtangent]

I'm sure this has been asked a thousand times, but what is the rental scene for the Red One like right now? I'm doing my research on doing a career shift at this point from CG to live action. I would follow what seems to be shaping up to be the typical business model of Red One + mandatory DIT/2nd AC

So you know where I'm at in terms of my skill level, let me tell you a bit about myself: I've been doing computer graphics professionally (VFX and animation) for over 12 years. (TV and now features) I've been an avid amateur photographer for over 20 years. In the last 3-4 years I've taken several professional ed type cinematography workshops. (I've even DPed a few short films now)

Based on my skills I foresee no problem at all supporting the camera as a technician or even as a DP. I could also act as a second unit director or on set VFX sup. As far as post, I'm familiar enough with almost all forms of post production work flow that I could also serve as a post production supervisor.

What I imagine would be the toughest hurdle for me would be the fact that I've been entrenched in the CG world for so long my live action network and resume is pretty short.

I'm interested to hear any input people have. Is it an insane dream for me to think I can transition from the CG world to the live action world? I do just find in CG but for some time I've been thinking of switching over to live action. D-Cinema is enough of both that it seems like an interesting middle ground where I can put all my skills in to play.

 

[laguun]

You can certainly do it, there are many ACs out there who dont have a clue about DI / post and this becoming more and more problematic, as the digital cinema shooting becomes commonplace, we sure have shortage of high-class ACs with solid understanding of digital images.

Also, in our industry, its not to uncommon to change job - i personally worked my way from animator->colorist->supervisor->director->exec producer, and often switch back to one of the former jobs (or have to do several at once, if the budget is to tight).

However, always make sure to be excellent in the position that you are working in and life on the set is somewhat different than post for sure.

 

[Mitch Deoudes]

A lot of things are possible if you're willing to take a pay cut. From what I've been able to gather (I'm a 15-year vfx vet who's recently been AC'ing just for the variety), even the top AC day rate just barely comes up against what a decent vfx freelancer makes. DIT's are a cut below that, I would think. And the hours are much more brutal.

But hey, it's certainly got something that sitting behind a computer all day pushing vertices lacks.

You might also want to check out the DP day rate thread [here]. I'm sort of curious myself how hard it is to make a go of it shooting for a living, if you're not a rock star or Old Man of Cinematography with 30 years under your belt.

 

[lordtangent]

Oh, I probably should have mentioned I'm LA based.

meeotch, Thanks for the rough idea on rates. That's one of the things I'm of course concerned about. I get what you are saying about getting some "variety". I've been a CG lighting specialist now for 5 years at large studio and it's starting to feel like I work at a factory.

DP work is something that of course interests me and I also have the concern that not being an "Old Man" of cinematography could make it a huge uphill battle. That's why I'm just "thinking small" right now: DIT/AC .... Though, I gotta say that lighting with "real light" is like childsplay compared to doing and equally good job CG. And it goes so much faster. Real-time! And now that I'm starting to get pretty good with a light meter the whole "voodoo black art" DP thing is totally de-mystified for me. I don't need a video monitor anymore for lighting. (Though of course it does help get things perfect if it's calibrated correctly!)

Anyone else have input? Just assume that I actually am good and all I say I am when you give your advice.

Mostly I'm interested in the business realities my proposed career transition would entail.

 

[Ken Willinger]

Basically it comes down to will you have clients that you can count on that will hire you and your camera package enough for you to make a living? If you're going in cold with no contacts I'd say keep your job and moonlight with the whole idea of becoming a working DP. But if you know you're going to get hired, have lots of contacts who have given you a thumbs up, then go for it. But just because you have a RED camera does not instantly make you a desirable DP. The RED camera is just another tool. Your talent is what will get you the work. Good luck.

 

[Visceral_IvaN]

I'm sure this has been asked a thousand times, but what is the rental scene for the Red One like right now? I'm doing my research on doing a career shift at this point from CG to live action. I would follow what seems to be shaping up to be the typical business model of Red One + mandatory DIT/2nd AC

So you know where I'm at in terms of my skill level, let me tell you a bit about myself: I've been doing computer graphics professionally (VFX and animation) for over 12 years. (TV and now features) I've been an avid amateur photographer for over 20 years. In the last 3-4 years I've taken several professional ed type cinematography workshops. (I've even DPed a few short films now)

Based on my skills I foresee no problem at all supporting the camera as a technician or even as a DP. I could also act as a second unit director or on set VFX sup. As far as post, I'm familiar enough with almost all forms of post production work flow that I could also serve as a post production supervisor.

What I imagine would be the toughest hurdle for me would be the fact that I've been entrenched in the CG world for so long my live action network and resume is pretty short.

I'm interested to hear any input people have. Is it an insane dream for me to think I can transition from the CG world to the live action world? I do just find in CG but for some time I've been thinking of switching over to live action. D-Cinema is enough of both that it seems like an interesting middle ground where I can put all my skills in to play.

I think you are in a unique position to pitch to the VFX market with your CG contacts - we all know that RED performs rather well on Greenscreen. I think thi may be a god middleground for you before you slowly make the full transition into live action.
Good luck!

 

[lordtangent]

I think you are in a unique position to pitch to the VFX market with your CG contacts - we all know that RED performs rather well on Greenscreen. I think thi may be a god middleground for you before you slowly make the full transition into live action.
Good luck!

I've been working mostly on full CG films over the past 5 years. My VFX experience was before that. (Though I do have a lot of friends with more recent and stronger VFX backgrounds than myself at the studio. There is a lot of crossover.)

 

[albert rudnicki]

i've made a switch from post to the field two years ago.
It's not easy at first, but the knowledge you have may very well work for your advantage. You can pitch for the jobs that are closely related to the post.
ohhh and you know if you screw up something, you can always fix it in post
All the best !

 

[Jason Ing]

Don't know if this will be helpful, Lordtangent, but I think you should go for it. I think you're realistic enough to know that you won't get rich quick from it (eventually and hopefully you might move up to DP if you're talented). But the way I see it, you'll regret it more if you don't. And, if it fails, you already have the skills and resume to go back to what you were doing. So it's a no lose situation to me. Chase your dreams. You're an amateur photographer for a reason... meaning that's what you ENJOY doing. You probably enjoy vfx too. But live life to its fullest, man.

 

[lordtangent]

For those who think it is a bad idea I would like to hear your reasons.

 

[donatello b]

"I gotta say that lighting with "real light" is like childsplay compared to doing and equally good job CG."

on a feature that i shot the live action i was brought in to sit with the CGI guys to help them light the CGI ... i never had to worry about any lights being in frame , lights could move where ever at any time during shots , lights are invisable to the camera , if i didn't like the lighting it could be changed in minutes , there's no walls, ceilings to restrict lighting .. there just didn't seem to be that many limitations , ...
so i guess it's really where you're sitting as i found CGI lighting to be childplays compared to lighting in the real world ....

"Based on my skills I foresee no problem at all supporting the camera as a technician or even as a DP."

the Red camera doesn't need a technician ....
DP - most persons that i know that started in CGI made the move by shooting live plates/action for their employers ... or moved over to shooting motion control (animation) for a time to build a reel ...

what's your location ?
you willing to move to new location/state?

 

[Curran Giddens]

DP - most persons that i know that started in CGI made the move by shooting live plates/action for their employers ... or moved over to shooting motion control (animation) for a time to build a reel ...

This is kind of what I am doing. But, I'm going from only working in post with live plates/action, to shooting motion control and AND doing the post. For now I am only renting my RED until I get the VFS Mirus moco head + accessories.

I am hoping to partner with someone with CGI skills. My skills are definitely lacking in that area.

 

[lordtangent]

donatello,

I'm in LA. But relocating is totally an option for me, depending on the location. LA is a pretty good hub though.

Yeah... where you sit. It's interesting that way. So, you were the DP? And the CG guys on this particular crew were not good enough to light without you in the room?

IMHO, the biggest problem with CG is that it CAN be changed, and change, and changed again. Until sometimes it's not better, it's worse.

But yeah, there are no limitations. (another porblem for people who don't have a good eye, since they don't even know what they are trying to make in in the first place)

When I say it's childs play, my point is that photorealism is automatic. And you can spend all the time you waste setting up and rendering in CG actually making live action look good. And there is no rendering time. CG is pretty easy for me these days also. Just different. And the process is slower because of rendering. It's not realitime, that's for sure. Were you doing full CG or FX? CG FX to plates is actually easier most of the time than full CG (inspite of what FX people like to think)

Curran,

PM me if you are interested in workign with me. I'm working on a new reel right now. The FX stuff is still pretty modest (It's mostly full CG stuff) but you gotta start somewhere!

 

[Mitch Deoudes]

When I say it's childs play, my point is that photorealism is automatic.
IMHO, the biggest problem with CG is that it CAN be changed, and change, and changed again.

I was going to make a similar explanatory comment, but you beat me to it. It may be faster to move a light in CG, but you spend a lot of time doing stuff that you get for "free" in the real world. You're building complexity from the bottom up, in order to simulate the complexity that just *is* in a real world scenario. Also, as you noted, the deadlines are longer & clients feel the need to use up all of the available time. Try spending an entire day (or several) lighting a single shot in real life, and see how psyched your producer is. But basically, it's just different - slower, but not necessarily harder or easier.

lordtangent - where are you at, DW? R&H? We may know some of the same people.

curran - feel free to PM me too, if you've got any shoots near NYC (I'm in manhattan) or need a CG opinion on anything. Until my camera comes, I'm definitely interested in shooting opportunities.

 

[lordtangent]

Exactly.

Well, it looks like most people think moving from a career in CG to a career centered around the Red One is insane.

My plan for some time was to wait and see what Scarlett actually turns out to be before I move on this anyway. And of course continuing to practice my lighting skills with the camera I have already.

 

[Mitch Deoudes]

Well, it looks like most people think moving from a career in CG to a career centered around the Red One is insane.

People outside of this thread? I thought the majority here sounded pretty encouraging. But in terms of "centered around the Red One" is probably the weak point, if there is one... substitute "centered around cinematography / production, because I'm really committed to it, and vfx makes me want to kill myself," and you've probably got something.

Me, I'm getting a Red to continue shooting my own films & as a leg-up toward supplementing my vfx "thing" with production. If I can make the camera pay for itself, well that's gravy.

 

[lordtangent]

I was refereing to people who are responding to the survey. The people responding to the thread seem to be mostly positive about the idea.

You have a good point. I really didn't ask the question the right way.

I'd be using the Red almost exactly the same way you are. But due to my budget having it pay for itself (or at least sort of "pull it's own weight" ) is less optional.

 

[Albert Cheng]

I work in the vfx industry as well, primarily as a cg artist but have always been into cinematography. I've also done some small project DP work to develop my knowledge and experience. I don't think a career transition is at all insane, however, there is a right way and wrong way to do it.

First off, unless you've got alot of money saved, don't plan on making a living (while keeping your lifestyle) simply by owning a Red and expecting to pay for itself. I've got an early reservation myself, having not picked it up, but I'm biding my time on the investment because of my work obligations.

Keep your day job, get the red, practice on side/independent projects in your free time (weekends generally) and get some experience. Don't expect your CG lighting experience to translate to real production skills one to one. "Real" light is alot harder to control than CG lights and it's not something you can do yourself (equipment, crew, juice, etc...).

Getting comfortable on the production side will let you get a more reasonable level of expectations as to your own abilities, the market, and the suitibility of the career. I think this is very important...to know what you are getting into. I say that because whenever I'm working on the production side, I often think to myself, "man, I am exhausted...I really wish I was back in an office working in front of my computer and going home at a reasonable hour".

Now don't get me wrong, sometimes there's movie magic and you think this is cool. But the reality is that, you have to slogg through alot of crap like poor working conditions/partnerships/talent/clients/producers/... that don't exist on the CG side.

Now I may sound like I'm trying to discourage you form making the leap...I'm not (I use to be a programmer of all things). I just want to interject some of the realities of the situation and encourage you to take things a step at a time and don't think of it as one or the other. Dip your toes in the water, bounce back and forth, just do it with cautious optimism.

I currently dabble into live action and plan on doing more work once I get my camera. But in the mean time, I've managed to build my career in such a way as to work with some of best directors in the biz to continually build up my knowledge. Ultimately, to work on my own projects.