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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Rent Rates - your opinions

If you red Gunleiks post carefully you may also see "That's where the real value is and that's why there's gonna be an awfull lot of RED doorstops in a year. This is the way the music industri has worked since Cubase AV..."

Just to point out what I think Gunleik says, put in a simple logic; Everyone can buy a hammer. It's easy to use. It wont make you into a carpenter though.

I don't for a second assume Gunleik ment that well established DPs as you (or ACs), can not or will not handle RED, which you assume in your post.

Off topc BTW; my thread is about renting rates!
 
This is stating the obvious, but if you're looking to make rental money because of RED, then look towards high quality glass.
 
This thread has been a fantastic read, It's great to hear about how people want to give there cameras away for the price of DVCam unit and others that want to actually try and make a little bit on there investment.

As a production company owner with several Directors on our books. The logical thing for myself and my Producers is to just purchase the gear our selves, bill to our clients as much as we can get for it. (within reason). Why because it's to cheap to ignore.

Its actually as simple as that. We are doing it now and are ramping up to have everything in house within the next 3 months.
This is a disaster for the local RENTAL HOUSE, being one of there biggest clients, I feel very sorry for them. But it was there choice not to adopt RED.

What everyone is forgetting about is that the RED camera itself is cheap. real cheap!.
If it dies, crashes, blows-up or drowns you just pull out another one or find someones cheap $500 rental for the day. 17k on a medium to big production to be honest is "lunch money". It's less than a typical film & processing bill. Not including the now uneeded $700 p/h first light grade.
We can buy a camera every job we do and save in doing so.

The fact is, $500 / $800 per day for the body only is as fair as it can be. but the truth is, Producers like me and I have had many meetings with other production company owners on this subject, the cameras are so cheap that we will all just buy a heap of RED's and keep them in house and only hire specialized items.
The Camera is quite honestly well underpriced and cheap enough to consider as a disposalble item over time.

RED have done themselves and the rental industry a great in-justice, Because a camera of this quality should have at least been 60-70k.
I still would have bought a heap and I'm sure a lot of smaller production houses and DOP's would have done the same.

But the damage has been done and RED will go down in history as the company that killed the Film & rental market and gave birth to a new one.
(not that I'm worried), I'm loving it. Our business model works perfectly with RED's plans. Keep it coming I say.

If I was a person thinking that buying a camera for the simple reason of renting it out. Id have to say you have rocks in your head.
You make far far more money producing a product with it than renting it.
Renting is going to be a mugs game. The big rental companies are already shaking in the boots and we are at a fraction of RED's output.

Also Remembering that RED will not stop developing newer better cameras that will turn this current crop of cameras into super-seeded shelf warmers over time.

Regardless of my dribble and ranting, This thread has been a great read, and I want to thank you all for the information.
It has made my decision to purchase everything and have in house a much easier pill to swallow.

Remember what happened to the Stills photography Market when Digital was adopted by everyone.
All of a sudden everyone was a professional with there 2 thousand dollar cameras, running around under cutting each other literally killing the photographic industry in less than 2 years.

Mark my words, we will see the same happen to the the film industry if you don't all stop trying to undercut each other.
My only bit of advice is, Revolutionize your businesses as RED has revolutionized high end motion picture cameras.
The business model we have lived with for the last 20 years has just changed dramatically and it aint coming back.

What RED has done has been amazing and I applaud them for there very giving nature, but maybe its to amazing, to cheap, to fast... there will be unfortunate casualties.
 
Big T said:
This thread has been a fantastic read, It's great to hear about how people want to give there cameras away for the price of DVCam unit and others that want to actually try and make a little bit on there investment.

As a production company owner with several Directors on our books. The logical thing for myself and my Producers is to just purchase the gear our selves, bill to our clients as much as we can get for it. (within reason). Why because it's to cheap to ignore.

Its actually as simple as that. We are doing it now and are ramping up to have everything in house within the next 3 months.
This is a disaster for the local RENTAL HOUSE, being one of there biggest clients, I feel very sorry for them. But it was there choice not to adopt RED.

What everyone is forgetting about is that the RED camera itself is cheap. real cheap!.
If it dies, crashes, blows-up or drowns you just pull out another one or find someones cheap $500 rental for the day. 17k on a medium to big production to be honest is "lunch money". It's less than a typical film & processing bill. Not including the now uneeded $700 p/h first light grade.
We can buy a camera every job we do and save in doing so.

The fact is, $500 / $800 per day for the body only is as fair as it can be. but the truth is, Producers like me and I have had many meetings with other production company owners on this subject, the cameras are so cheap that we will all just buy a heap of RED's and keep them in house and only hire specialized items.
The Camera is quite honestly well underpriced and cheap enough to consider as a disposalble item over time.

RED have done themselves and the rental industry a great in-justice, Because a camera of this quality should have at least been 60-70k.
I still would have bought a heap and I'm sure a lot of smaller production houses and DOP's would have done the same.

But the damage has been done and RED will go down in history as the company that killed the Film & rental market and gave birth to a new one.
(not that I'm worried), I'm loving it. Our business model works perfectly with RED's plans. Keep it coming I say.

If I was a person thinking that buying a camera for the simple reason of renting it out. Id have to say you have rocks in your head.
You make far far more money producing a product with it than renting it.
Renting is going to be a mugs game. The big rental companies are already shaking in the boots and we are at a fraction of RED's output.

Also Remembering that RED will not stop developing newer better cameras that will turn this current crop of cameras into super-seeded shelf warmers over time.

Regardless of my dribble and ranting, This thread has been a great read, and I want to thank you all for the information.
It has made my decision to purchase everything and have in house a much easier pill to swallow.

Remember what happened to the Stills photography Market when Digital was adopted by everyone.
All of a sudden everyone was a professional with there 2 thousand dollar cameras, running around under cutting each other literally killing the photographic industry in less than 2 years.

Mark my words, we will see the same happen to the the film industry if you don't all stop trying to undercut each other.
My only bit of advice is, Revolutionize your businesses as RED has revolutionized high end motion picture cameras.
The business model we have lived with for the last 20 years has just changed dramatically and it aint coming back.

What RED has done has been amazing and I applaud them for there very giving nature, but maybe its to amazing, to cheap, to fast... there will be unfortunate casualties.
Click to expand...

Could'nt agree more, as I come from the still photo side.

But you must tell me what is tsk?
 
Many interesting and valid points in this thread.

I have no exact opinion on this matter so far.

I would like to recommend to anyone to not be surprised to see the camera ~150-200€ daily rate by summer to winter 2008.

we are doing rental since a long time, with $$$ to $$$.$$$ gear and the rental market works like any other economy as well.

having said that, right now, i think 400-600 is a price which is paid today as there is -way- more demand than offer.

in summer/winter, this will change.

the pro rental business always osciallated around 0.75-2% on primary systems (as cameras), a little higher on gear which need care (lens) and much higher on accessories (which do live on the shelf often).

Also, it the rental rates highly depend on the local offerings. If you have a local/state monopoly, good for the rates you can get. If you face a shop with several cameras, services, lots of lenses who generates a lot of throughput, its different.

Mr.T thinks that this might change the industry. Possible, but not certain.

For me its *big* fun to see all this happening, and i like the disruptive quality of red (and hey, that comes from someone who owns *lots* of hdcam gear).

One thing is for sure.
The red camera is interesting in as it appeals to A-budget and skeleton-crew indie alike. It will be big fun to put pressure on all the HDVs in the market, but it also will be big fun to chase the panavisions. And to find -one- good price for both markets, ha, now thats challenging :)
 
Big T said:
This thread has been a fantastic read, It's great to hear about how people want to give there cameras away for the price of DVCam unit and others that want to actually try and make a little bit on there investment.

As a production company owner with several Directors on our books. The logical thing for myself and my Producers is to just purchase the gear our selves, bill to our clients as much as we can get for it. (within reason). Why because it's to cheap to ignore.

Its actually as simple as that. We are doing it now and are ramping up to have everything in house within the next 3 months.
This is a disaster for the local RENTAL HOUSE, being one of there biggest clients, I feel very sorry for them. But it was there choice not to adopt RED.

What everyone is forgetting about is that the RED camera itself is cheap. real cheap!.
If it dies, crashes, blows-up or drowns you just pull out another one or find someones cheap $500 rental for the day. 17k on a medium to big production to be honest is "lunch money". It's less than a typical film & processing bill. Not including the now uneeded $700 p/h first light grade.
We can buy a camera every job we do and save in doing so.

The fact is, $500 / $800 per day for the body only is as fair as it can be. but the truth is, Producers like me and I have had many meetings with other production company owners on this subject, the cameras are so cheap that we will all just buy a heap of RED's and keep them in house and only hire specialized items.
The Camera is quite honestly well underpriced and cheap enough to consider as a disposalble item over time.

RED have done themselves and the rental industry a great in-justice, Because a camera of this quality should have at least been 60-70k.
I still would have bought a heap and I'm sure a lot of smaller production houses and DOP's would have done the same.

But the damage has been done and RED will go down in history as the company that killed the Film & rental market and gave birth to a new one.
(not that I'm worried), I'm loving it. Our business model works perfectly with RED's plans. Keep it coming I say.

If I was a person thinking that buying a camera for the simple reason of renting it out. Id have to say you have rocks in your head.
You make far far more money producing a product with it than renting it.
Renting is going to be a mugs game. The big rental companies are already shaking in the boots and we are at a fraction of RED's output.

Also Remembering that RED will not stop developing newer better cameras that will turn this current crop of cameras into super-seeded shelf warmers over time.

Regardless of my dribble and ranting, This thread has been a great read, and I want to thank you all for the information.
It has made my decision to purchase everything and have in house a much easier pill to swallow.

Remember what happened to the Stills photography Market when Digital was adopted by everyone.
All of a sudden everyone was a professional with there 2 thousand dollar cameras, running around under cutting each other literally killing the photographic industry in less than 2 years.

Mark my words, we will see the same happen to the the film industry if you don't all stop trying to undercut each other.
My only bit of advice is, Revolutionize your businesses as RED has revolutionized high end motion picture cameras.
The business model we have lived with for the last 20 years has just changed dramatically and it aint coming back.

What RED has done has been amazing and I applaud them for there very giving nature, but maybe its to amazing, to cheap, to fast... there will be unfortunate casualties.
Click to expand...

I agree...for the most part. Although it seems you want it both ways. High rates to justify higher rentals to your clients but low rates so you can rent a quick replacements in case of failure....

Regardless, I think you hit the nail on the head when you suggest to put the intangible value into content. As for your business model you may not want to itemize your gear bill. You wouldn't want your client to suggest getting the gear from another source.
 
Big T,
This is not a flame, just an observation. You're telling people in the rental business that their business model is dead and that they will have to give the camera away to keep it rented. At the same time you're telling us all to not give away the production business like they did in the world of still photography. Why couldn't the average Red kid buy some production insurance, get a shabby chic office, steal a few directors, and start undercutting your business? Because a lot of it has to do with relationships, whether you're a rental house, owner/operator, or production company.
I think the truth is more like Supernova's post. There are MANY layers to the business, and every project is decidedly different. At the top end, production companies make markup and production fees. Period. If the DP wants to shoot Dalsa or Genesis, the producer could care less from an economic standpoint. They'll make a markup on a $5,000 per day rental AND one-light fee. At the low end, every dollar counts and if a company can amortize an HVX-200 (or a Red) then that makes great sense.
However, pushing one type of camera because it's your company's camera is NEVER a good thing. That goes for rental houses, owner/operators, and production companies. Rental houses have a scalable business, with very high-end and very low-end items. Some owner operators do too (that would be me) Smart production companies have a scalable business too, with (generally) the young kids doing the low-end quickies and the higher-priced, established directors doing the big jobs. It's true that Red fills the bill for both high-end and low-end, so it's a great choice if you're going to buy a camera.
I just think that there are no absolutes. It's whatever works for your situation, and I think we're all lucky to live in an amazing period of change. Just don't forget to change with the times! ;)
Cheers,
Harry
 
i don't think they'll be "one" business model to follow ....
from reading through the post we can see Red will have a rental range 500 - 1200 for a basic package ... many Producer's will continue to rent from their current rental houses - i think one change will be there will be many more owner/DP/opertaors so some Producers may try it out just to see ? it all comes down to the kind of SERVICE they are used to receiving for their $$ ...

many production houses will look at their rental bills for the past year ( or what they're planning to spend on rental for current project ) and see if the $numbers work = we spend X$$ on rentals , we can buy Z camera for X $$ then sell it at end of project for Y$$ = is it worth the $$ to do either ?
and many just do not want to own equipment so they'll just rent ...

EXPERIENCED producers know that the at the end of a project the cheapest bid could end up costing more then the highest bid ...
IMO there's plenty of room in the market place for 500 - 1200 basic day packages.
 
I started the thread just to get hunch what you think a day rate is about. For myself I'm really not interested in renting out my gear (not for 500 anyway), I just wanted to know if somebody ask me and a direction to know what to charge on my own assignments.

However, on the still side, it was a renting business as well. Before DSLR. Soon enough everyone will have a 20 mpix camera, but who will have the jobs. It's more to it than a camera (of course). So well established photographers are all good.

The ones which really on the good foot is the post house working with still. My guess is they can charge about 400-500% more today then before DSLR. Why?
 
Mark Allen said:
Except most rentals have 3 day weeks or 10 day months.

So, it would be like 2 months before purchasing would make sense. Of course, that's based on 5% and if someone was renting for 2 months, the rental house might get agressive with their discounts, maybe even 2.5% making it 4 months = a purchase... and then, you figure... yeah if you're renting something for 4 months, the renter should definitely be considering a purchase.
Click to expand...

How many people do you know that shoot for 4 months? well true there are probably shoots that last that long but 75% of shoots only have budgets for 3-4 weeks for feature films. BTW if you have money to shoot 4 months you're probably shooting film.
 
harryclark said:
Big T,
This is not a flame, just an observation. You're telling people in the rental business that their business model is dead and that they will have to give the camera away to keep it rented. At the same time you're telling us all to not give away the production business like they did in the world of still photography. Why couldn't the average Red kid buy some production insurance, get a shabby chic office, steal a few directors, and start undercutting your business? Because a lot of it has to do with relationships, whether you're a rental house, owner/operator, or production company.
I think the truth is more like Supernova's post. There are MANY layers to the business, and every project is decidedly different. At the top end, production companies make markup and production fees. Period. If the DP wants to shoot Dalsa or Genesis, the producer could care less from an economic standpoint. They'll make a markup on a $5,000 per day rental AND one-light fee. At the low end, every dollar counts and if a company can amortize an HVX-200 (or a Red) then that makes great sense.
However, pushing one type of camera because it's your company's camera is NEVER a good thing. That goes for rental houses, owner/operators, and production companies. Rental houses have a scalable business, with very high-end and very low-end items. Some owner operators do too (that would be me) Smart production companies have a scalable business too, with (generally) the young kids doing the low-end quickies and the higher-priced, established directors doing the big jobs. It's true that Red fills the bill for both high-end and low-end, so it's a great choice if you're going to buy a camera.
I just think that there are no absolutes. It's whatever works for your situation, and I think we're all lucky to live in an amazing period of change. Just don't forget to change with the times! ;)
Cheers,
Harry
Click to expand...

I Agree with that Harry, Except you can under cut me all day, but true creative executions & reputation always wins the job at the end of the day not cost cutting. I'n my 10 years of owning a full service production company I've lost less than ten times out of hundreds to a price war with small fly by night companies. Regardless of that I agree that the smaller budget end of the market survive using your philosophy.

Both work.
Thanks Harry.
 
I think producers are going to experience a change as well. Not just from the intro of red but also the changing dynamics of marketing budgets towards online which don't appear to be receding in the foreseeable future. Marketing departments will be looking at squeezing budgets as much as possible. Of course unless broadcast media prices drop, the comparable costs of shooting a tvc (where i guess is the markets sweet spot for returns) doesn't really affect a yearly budget. But one would have to guess that tvc's spots will reduce in price from here on in generally. Prime time will probably hold off the most.
I think one also has to learn from the dslr market and those that got involved early did come across as market leaders and those that dragged their feet lost a lot. People with outstanding portfolios always have no trouble no matter what. Also a lot of new guys rose quickly in the transition that got involved early because they could fire away thousands of shots and utilize their own passion and quickly learn their equipment at low cost. (and i have to say since the introduction of the dslr photography has got better over all, with some of the best work coming from newcomers, a lot of that a direct result of digital workflow) In terms of red i can see the same happening. A lot will choose their spare time to shoot specs and some business will sway their way because it's something tangible and can be added to the portfolio as a bonus. Shooting tests is another low cost option, even if you are shooting with slr lenses or whatever, you give a client something more and that may be something clients like. I know i would. At the end of the day they know what they want and if someone can provide it then i can't see why they wouldn't purchase it. it's no longer an idea but something tangible. It's speculation of course because anything can happen in these dynamic markets. All i know is that it's a good time for any early adopters or buyers wether producers, owner ops or rental houses. 80% of the market still hasn't really worked out what is happening and a good deal of them are in denial because of traditions, industry affiliations etc...
And i don't think red is ready to compete fully with 35mm just quite yet. Until that dynamic range comes up there's a lot of work (and the best paying stuff) that it will continue on it's merry way in the 35mm world. The gap has been shortened which opens the middle market ( a nice place to be)
I think the low budget feature market will pull a lot of work for a lot of people. Obviously your day rate will go down if you are guaranteed 4-5 weeks of work. $500 a day with a good kit sounds all right then, surely? A lot of it will be situational. I'm sure a lot of people will hire themselves out for even lower if it means they get industry contacts etc... There's so many variables that it reminds me of the old swedish proverb "time is a great storyteller" But it is human to speculate.
 
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