Rent Rates - your opinions

[sparkhope]

I'm renting my RED, with 6 35mm Nikons, O'Connor tripod, hard drive, flash cards, LCD, basic production pack, three batteries, extra handles, other accessories, etc. for $500 a day.

Stephen

Stephen,

what's your weekly & monthly rate?

Cheers

 

[Brian Reisdorf]

Stephen, what's your weekly & monthly rate?

No way near enough.

 

[Bret Weeks]

No way near enough.

Yeah, no kidding - Hey, want to send your camera out to Nashville on permanent rental?

bw

 

[HDPioneers.com]

I come from the perspective that cheaper prices are good for everyone, it gets more people involved in filmmaking, it makes high quality gear available to larger markets, and it overall makes for a more vibrant film marketplace. I've invested a lot of $ in my red package, and I do hope to make a profit on it.

But if I keep my rental rates in line with traditional rental houses to the exclusion of indie filmmakers and people on tight budgets, then I won't be happy. RED represents the democratization of filmmaking, and I try to reflect that with my pricing.

 

[Michael Brennan]

1%

1%

Historically the rate card for electronic cameras in UK is 1% of value per day based on 4 days for 7

If kit is in short supply thats the rate.
If it isnt in short supply then its less. I was first guy in Europe with a stanton crane and it went out for 4% per day! 18 months later it dropped to 2% when another couple of jibs arrived and the new guys charged less.

But on the other hand I achieved a 1% rate (£1250) on my f900 drama package only about 1% of the time....

If a lot of producers want to shoot on RED then 1% is achievable.
Demand needs to build. We'll know soon enough if RED packages are in short supply.

Owner operators tend to build up a nice package over time and tend to throw in extras ie a dolly for free, why?

1/ make their life easy...cant be bothered hauling it off the truck
2/ to do a better job motivated by art or career.
3/ to get the gig, motivated by $$
4/ Combination of above




Mike Brennan

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

I'm renting my RED, with 6 35mm Nikons, O'Connor tripod, hard drive, flash cards, LCD, basic production pack, three batteries, extra handles, other accessories, etc. for $500 a day.

Stephen

hope your not in LA area...

 

[Chris Pickle]

I'm renting my RED, with 6 35mm Nikons, O'Connor tripod, hard drive, flash cards, LCD, basic production pack, three batteries, extra handles, other accessories, etc. for $500 a day.

Stephen

From an ROI pov, this rate seems to make sense. If many rental houses are at 1% day rate, then $500 / day rate should get you 50K worth of gear. Yes?

The above package should be able to be put together for 50k.

I think very early adopters should have gained a premium for a short time, but as more units ship, then I suspect it will get a bit tougher. I'm often surprised that people think the day rate should be attributed to the "4K" image and not the capital costs.

The hard math will not be lost on the big rental houses sitting on 40 Red bodies!

As well, when some imply that because a film shoot will save money by using the Red instead of film, that the savings should somehow flow to the Red owner, well... doesn't the producer want to choose Red to save money.... at least somewhat?

And while the producer will save a tonne of money, I'd like to see the look on their face when they realize they need to buy a wheelbarrow full of Hard Drives....yes... yes the HDs are cheaper than film transfer and etc... but Hds are often an overlooked cost in long form digital shooting.

Chris

 

[Jonas Nyström]

From an ROI pov, this rate seems to make sense. If many rental houses are at 1% day rate, then $500 / day rate should get you 50K worth of gear. Yes?

The above package should be able to be put together for 50k.

I think very early adopters should have gained a premium for a short time, but as more units ship, then I suspect it will get a bit tougher. I'm often surprised that people think the day rate should be attributed to the "4K" image and not the capital costs.

The hard math will not be lost on the big rental houses sitting on 40 Red bodies!

As well, when some imply that because a film shoot will save money by using the Red instead of film, that the savings should somehow flow to the Red owner, well... doesn't the producer want to choose Red to save money.... at least somewhat?

And while the producer will save a tonne of money, I'd like to see the look on their face when they realize they need to buy a wheelbarrow full of Hard Drives....yes... yes the HDs are cheaper than film transfer and etc... but Hds are often an overlooked cost in long form digital shooting.

Chris

Yes, but the industry standard is 2%, ergo 35 000 x 0.02 = 700 bucks!

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

You will never put 2% into practice. Theory and reality differ. Also an industry standard.

Hans

 

[Kreisky]

750 dollars a day ! 4000 a week ! 10.000.- a month !
(these prices are based on Machiavellian rules :bleh: )

 

[Chris Kenny]

1% might be reasonable on a lens that will have some value in the rental market even after 20 years, but seems very low for a digital cinema camera. Regardless of the "rendering obsolesce obsolete" slogan, the useful life of a Red One isn't going to be anywhere close to 20 years. Even if the thing is still working, newer cameras will have far surpassed it (at lower cost) and the IT infrastructure it depends on (CF cards, etc.) will have gone the way of the 5.25" floppy disk.

Many Prosumer cameras rent for more like 3%, sometimes even a bit more. I suspect once things settle out, the Red One will basically split the difference between that and the 1% rate for long-lived film gear.

 

[Jonas Nyström]

You will never put 2% into practice. Theory and reality differ. Also an industry standard.

Hans

I will, Hans. Anyway, I will never let my RED kit go for less than 900 USD as a daily rate. Not worth the trouble and renting is not my core business.

 

[Harry Clark]

Guys,
I've largely stayed out of this debate since the beginning. But...
I'll just say to those who are not experienced in the rental business it's a balancing act.
Beware the race to the bottom. If your prices are cheap, you will always be the cheap guy. When the big-budget jobs come in, your producer "friends" will go elsewhere. You will barely beak even by the time the Red Two comes out, at which time there will be another horde of eager kids with Red Two, which you cannot afford because you have not broken even yet. The same producer "friends" will find new camera owners to exploit. And breaking even will not send your kids to college, or pay for a decent home, or whatever.
At the same time, list prices and fair prices are two different things. It's customary for some bargaining to happen, and for long-term projects to get a break, and of course students and indies, if that's where your heart lies. And don't nickel and dime clients either. They won't remember you favorably if you fight with them over charging for that extra set of short rods the AC asked for!
Those of you who have bought cameras for personal projects, or production companies who have them as part of your business plan are in a slightly different boat. But those of you who own cameras to rent out as part of your "career" should tread carefully.
And day rates for labor should ALWAYS be broken out in my opinion. There is overtime, there are certain benefits that require the labor to be paid on a time card, etc. And if the want a little discount on the camera because that's what rental houses do, then your day rate remains a different discussion.
I keep waiting for Mitch Gross to chime in here...
Cheers,
Harry

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

I will, Hans. Anyway, I will never let my RED kit go for less than 900 USD as a daily rate. Not worth the trouble and renting is not my core business.

Good to hear that renting is not your core business! I would rather make some films than trying to compete with the big rental houses, much more fun.

Hans

 

[Thor Wixom]

I'm consistently getting $1000 / day for Red + 18-50, 4 batteries, 2 chargers, matte box, follow focus, Cartoni Delta Tripod, and a few sundries.

It is REQUIRED that at least one tech from my company be hired with the package at $400 / day, but preferably two... one on the camera at all times (DIT, if you will), and one at the computer for data management.

-Thor

 

[Russell Fogle]

I'm with you Thor, Tech Required I really don't need the rentals, but if my tech is out with my gear than it's only extra money the way I look at it.

I keep seeing hints of a RED 2... Does anyone really have any real info on this or is this a phantom that has appeared because so many people keep dropping the mention of a "RED 2" in posts...

 

[Evin Grant]

No Red two. It's just FUD.
My HVX package still goes out for $450. You guys can have the $500 Red market all to your selves. Ask a feature producer if he'd prefer to spend $500 or $1500 a day on his camera package and he'll immediately be suspicious of the $500 rate. He knows you get what you pay for.

 

[Chris Pickle]

........ Ask a feature producer if he'd prefer to spend $500 or $1500 a day on his camera package and he'll immediately be suspicious of the $500 rate. He knows you get what you pay for.

Until he finds out that you can buy a Red body for 1/5 the price of an F900, then he'll understand. :biggrin:

 

[jimhare]

Until he finds out that you can buy a Red body for 1/5 the price of an F900, then he'll understand. :biggrin:

That's the thing. If you rented once a week, you could pay for a complete kit in about 8 months if you're paying $1,200 a crack.

I'm a good example. I probably spent about $12k on rentals + $65k on O/B vans last year simply because I had no interest in owning an expensive high end camera. And I only rented for about 1/2 my projects, using Mini DV or DV-CAM for the rest to save money.

Now I've bought a RED and can use it on ALL my projects.

I agree, $1,000 - $1,600 is perfectly fine for infrequent renters, but it might drive even more people to purchase if they shoot regularly.

If there end up being 10,000 REDs in circulation, pretty soon everyone will have a friend who owns one and there will be no rental market at all!

Just a thought.

 

[Jeff Coatney]

Guys,
I've largely stayed out of this debate since the beginning. But...
I'll just say to those who are not experienced in the rental business it's a balancing act.
Beware the race to the bottom. If your prices are cheap, you will always be the cheap guy. When the big-budget jobs come in, your producer "friends" will go elsewhere. You will barely beak even by the time the Red Two comes out, at which time there will be another horde of eager kids with Red Two, which you cannot afford because you have not broken even yet. The same producer "friends" will find new camera owners to exploit. And breaking even will not send your kids to college, or pay for a decent home, or whatever.
At the same time, list prices and fair prices are two different things. It's customary for some bargaining to happen, and for long-term projects to get a break, and of course students and indies, if that's where your heart lies. And don't nickel and dime clients either. They won't remember you favorably if you fight with them over charging for that extra set of short rods the AC asked for!
Those of you who have bought cameras for personal projects, or production companies who have them as part of your business plan are in a slightly different boat. But those of you who own cameras to rent out as part of your "career" should tread carefully.
And day rates for labor should ALWAYS be broken out in my opinion. There is overtime, there are certain benefits that require the labor to be paid on a time card, etc. And if the want a little discount on the camera because that's what rental houses do, then your day rate remains a different discussion.
I keep waiting for Mitch Gross to chime in here...
Cheers,
Harry

Thank you, Harry. I couldn't have said it better.