Render minus RSX file is soft

[Dennis A]

My apologies if this is posted somewhere, but I've been digging everywhere and I can't seem to find my answer.

Using ClipFinder to render to ProRes 4444 at 2K with the look source set to Camera, all my footage is coming out just ever so slightly soft. If I create an RSX file (using any ol' method) and use that as my look source, the final output has the desired clarity.

I've uploaded a couple of snippets to demonstrate the difference.

Is this common? I'd very much like to set up a workflow where I can have a watch folder to render clips as they're offloaded from the camera, but if I have to build an RSX file for each clip, that will greatly slow me down.

Any thoughts or advice would be very helpful.

dennis

 

[Luca Immesi]

My apologies if this is posted somewhere, but I've been digging everywhere and I can't seem to find my answer.

Using ClipFinder to render to ProRes 4444 at 2K with the look source set to Camera, all my footage is coming out just ever so slightly soft. If I create an RSX file (using any ol' method) and use that as my look source, the final output has the desired clarity.

I've uploaded a couple of snippets to demonstrate the difference.

Is this common? I'd very much like to set up a workflow where I can have a watch folder to render clips as they're offloaded from the camera, but if I have to build an RSX file for each clip, that will greatly slow me down.

Any thoughts or advice would be very helpful.

dennis

Which camera build did you use?

 

[Dennis A]

Clipfinder is reporting 30.4.1 #30.

 

[David Battistella]

Are you using a FULL debayer?

Which filter are you using IE: "Mitchell Smooth, etc"

What are the clipfinder settings? What frame size, etc.

david

 

[Luca Immesi]

Clipfinder is reporting 30.4.1 #30.

I'm asking the camera build because I noticed a soft render also from apple color (full debayer) from build 30 M sensor. I'm not sure, I have to test it more.
I've done also the latest pro applications upgrade.

 

[David Battistella]

I'm asking the camera build because I noticed a soft render also from apple color (full debayer) from build 30 M sensor. I'm not sure, I have to test it more.
I've done also the latest pro applications upgrade.

Have not had this problem with Build 30.3.1. I'm not touching 30.4.1 it seems very buggy.

David

 

[Dennis A]

I was using the full debayer and the only reason I have 30.4.1 is because that's what the rental house provided us with.

Can I assume, then, that people with a more stable firmware aren't seeing this problem?

 

[David Battistella]

I'd contact deanan at RED about this.

Which video card are you using? Color uses GPU based rendering from the installed video card. There was a thread where there was a suggestion that people should update their video card firmware.

That might be worth checking.

Odd that a rental house would rent on a BETA firmware and not a release build.

David

 

[Dennis A]

My graphics card is the stock ATI Radeon HD 2600 for an early 2008 Pro. I should point out I was getting the same level of blur when rendering out of RedRushes when there was no RSX file present.

 

[David Battistella]

My graphics card is the stock ATI Radeon HD 2600 for an early 2008 Pro. I should point out I was getting the same level of blur when rendering out of RedRushes when there was no RSX file present.

Interesting,

Perhaps there is a default to the sharpening in the RSX file compared to non RSX. That is my guess.

If you use something like clipfinder it takes a few seconds to copy a basic RSX file to many clips at once. That might be a temporary workaround.

David

 

[Dennis A]

Sorry for not mentioning this earlier. The frame size is 2048x1024 and I'm not sure the specific debayer because I don't think clipfinder lets me get that specific.

The main problem with not being able to use a default RSX file is that these are going to be the finishing files and using one RSX will set a consistent ISO and Color Temp across the board.

Long story short, the director and post house want to make a big deal of being able to say they finished out to film off the files converted on set. No offline/online, otherwise this wouldn't be an issue. I know the obvious answer is to just deal with the offline/online and not care about the look of the edit clips, but the reality of the situation is, I need to care.

I've contacted RED and am waiting to hear from them. I'm also trying to get in touch with the rental house to see if I can get a confirmation of the specific build number we'll be using as well as test footage shot on that number so I can build my workflow. Hopefully, something will come out of all of that as it seems this is a problem without an easy solution.

If you've got any brilliant ideas for making a workflow happen, David, I'm all ears but it seems to me there are just too many variables to automate the creation of an RSX.

 

[David Battistella]

Denis,

I hear where you are coming from and I will spare you any opinions on no grading, etc.

In clipfinder when you select render there is a window that comes up. You can choose, full, half high and half standard. In this scenario you should select FULL. The same goes for Apple color, make sure your settings are set to full render (because you can do half).

It's important also to understand that RED does no sharpening on the RAW file, they have (wisely) left that to taste as part of your grading workflow.

Even at the film stage there will have to be "some" kind of grade applied to the image in order to match it to the color space, film stock and particular film recorder being used.

In my opinion the best workflow would be to render with REDCINE-X to an uncompressed QUICKTIME codec (if you have the storage and speed to deal with that) but otherwise the entire film workflow is not really set up in this manner.

Best of luck with this project, but it feels like "Charlie" "Foxtrot" to me.

David

 

[Dennis A]

You're right. I was mistaken because I wrote that reply when I wasn't at my machine. I've been using 2K+ High consistently on all of my tests. I was also able to dig up some RED files that were shot a year and a half ago and after running them through the same test as the new footage, they came out equally clear with and without an RSX file.

It would definitely seem, then, that the camera, firmware or otherwise, is the problem.

I hear where you are coming from and I will spare you any opinions on no grading, etc.

Our post house has calibrated our monitors to match their system and their only mandate was that clips be brought in at Color Space "CameraRGB" and Gamma Space "REC709" to match their workflow. So we will be running the entire film through Color to get it as close as possible before handing it to the post house for a "final touches" grade and to get it to spec. Hence the reason the first render has to be spot on. They are the online files.

It's important also to understand that RED does no sharpening on the RAW file, they have (wisely) left that to taste as part of your grading workflow.

Even at the film stage there will have to be "some" kind of grade applied to the image in order to match it to the color space, film stock and particular film recorder being used.

Would you say, then, that it's okay to leave it a bit soft and let the sharpening happen in Color? Or, because we're going to ProRes 4444, would the sharpening look less impressive than if they remained uncompressed.

I know that, because of its simplicity, it's at risk of being a twisty workflow and I appreciate your advice.

dennis

 

[David Battistella]

I like to use the color pass as the point at which I add sharpening. Do a few tests between ProRes 4444 and uncompressed but you will be happy with a slight amount .2 od sharpening which does punches things up the slightest bit.

david

 

[Dennis A]

Thank you, David! I just tested your recommendation to barely touch the sharpness and a slightly soft clip (one rendered minus the RSX) that's been sharpened in color looks just a hair sharper than a clip rendered with an RSX file.

While having to apply that sharpness to each individual clip in color could prove to be a pain, at the very least, it means I won't have to pull my hair out to make sure every clip gets its RSX file. The problem is correctable later in the pipeline.

And for any curious individuals, I'll continue to post here any updates I get from RED regarding the build being the source of my woes.

dennis

 

[David Battistella]

Dennis,

To apply the sharpening to every clip is easy.

1. Sharpen to taste.
2. Save preset.
3 Select all in timeline.
4. DOuble click on preset.

It's on every shot in the timeline now.

E Z P Z (easy peasy)

David