deepcode
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anybody out there having experience with 1/2 inch cameras, especially regarding DOF ?
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Regarding the RED-Mini: feature request
- Thread starter Eugenia Loli-Queru
- Start date
I'm with Deepcode on this one.
If RED were to announce they were making a similar camera to the XDCAM EX, but offered larger sensors 2/3" (or greater), 2K images, 4:2:2 and a better compression codec, I'd foget the Sony hands down! Less than $8K USD.. Sign me up!
I'm hoping the term "Pocket Cam" used by RED is really a figure of speech.
Something around the size of the EX would be great!
If RED were to announce they were making a similar camera to the XDCAM EX, but offered larger sensors 2/3" (or greater), 2K images, 4:2:2 and a better compression codec, I'd foget the Sony hands down! Less than $8K USD.. Sign me up!
I'm hoping the term "Pocket Cam" used by RED is really a figure of speech.
Something around the size of the EX would be great!
This would be awesome!
deepcode
Member
first DOF comparison for the PMW on the german "slashcam" forum:
http://www.slashcam.de/artikel/Test/Erste-Shots-mit-der-Vorserie--Sony-PMW-EX1.html#T4
looks very good for me - much bigger difference to 1/3'' imagers of the HVX than expected
And really great low light sensivity - MUCH more than the HVX altough the Sony imagers have 3 times the resolution.
So if RED gives us something better It would be great, but I am shure It´s also possible to do great work with the new sony.
Thanks RED, I am shure the lazy dog Sony would not rollout something like this without the competition to you. ;-)
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http://www.slashcam.de/artikel/Test/Erste-Shots-mit-der-Vorserie--Sony-PMW-EX1.html#T4
looks very good for me - much bigger difference to 1/3'' imagers of the HVX than expected
And really great low light sensivity - MUCH more than the HVX altough the Sony imagers have 3 times the resolution.
So if RED gives us something better It would be great, but I am shure It´s also possible to do great work with the new sony.
Thanks RED, I am shure the lazy dog Sony would not rollout something like this without the competition to you. ;-)
:: www.deepcode-one.com ::
sounds, vision, interaction
think big picture (small camera), folks!
think big picture (small camera), folks!
OK, posting for the first time here and I want to bring a really fresh perspective to the discussion. Instead of obsessing over what details work perfectly for you, why not look at the development process in a really different way. (I dare not say paradigm.)
Remember when the SONY VX1000 appeared on the scene? It changed independent filmmaking and broadcast television in a few months and that's no small accomplishment. I say this camera because the other miniDV cameras were full of problems. The canon cameras and the GOOD panasonic cameras were years later...
A small camera from RED with ANY of RED's over-delivery on quality, modular configurations, workflow, etc would be an absolute godsend to the very same markets. Can you imagine being a film student these days? Can you imagine a whole generation of film students and independent filmmakers owning a smaller, affordable RED camera and making films tucked into the corners of cars where no other camera would fit, running through the desert or the jungle where no prosumer camera would survive?
I think the A-minima comparison is the most important concept to follow - a fully professional camera that would allow students and accomplished filmmakers to pull off shots that can only be accomplished with a low profile camera that has solid glass on the front.
This discussion should be MORE than a wish list - we need to get the smaller RED camera to become a industry-transforming wave similar to what RED 1 obviously is.
And don;t worry, I am sure there are many, many RED cameras in the pipeline - but this one is REALLY important - maybe MORE important than RED 1.
Marco North
think big picture (small camera), folks!
OK, posting for the first time here and I want to bring a really fresh perspective to the discussion. Instead of obsessing over what details work perfectly for you, why not look at the development process in a really different way. (I dare not say paradigm.)
Remember when the SONY VX1000 appeared on the scene? It changed independent filmmaking and broadcast television in a few months and that's no small accomplishment. I say this camera because the other miniDV cameras were full of problems. The canon cameras and the GOOD panasonic cameras were years later...
A small camera from RED with ANY of RED's over-delivery on quality, modular configurations, workflow, etc would be an absolute godsend to the very same markets. Can you imagine being a film student these days? Can you imagine a whole generation of film students and independent filmmakers owning a smaller, affordable RED camera and making films tucked into the corners of cars where no other camera would fit, running through the desert or the jungle where no prosumer camera would survive?
I think the A-minima comparison is the most important concept to follow - a fully professional camera that would allow students and accomplished filmmakers to pull off shots that can only be accomplished with a low profile camera that has solid glass on the front.
This discussion should be MORE than a wish list - we need to get the smaller RED camera to become a industry-transforming wave similar to what RED 1 obviously is.
And don;t worry, I am sure there are many, many RED cameras in the pipeline - but this one is REALLY important - maybe MORE important than RED 1.
Marco North
krost-audiovisual
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hi,
no doubt that the small Red will be a breakthrough in many terms, but still announcing a professional pocket camera will leave many people sticking to the sonys, panas etc.
Why?
Simply because if it's going to be a camera like the "small" SI - basically a box with the sensor, rudimentary controls with an external LCD - then this will be a very limited market...
I can't go to a client with this sort of camera shooting a documentary/image filmetc. This small SI is an addition to the full-size version, or usable for special occasions, but not a run-gun camera at all....
if it's gonna be like the small SI then i have to save money and try to get a red one.
it's the simple question if red will produce a camera for one-man entreprises and/or video-hobbyists, or a camera for film-folk who'd love to have a small version of their big cameras for special use...
just my thoughts..
cheers
stefan
ps.: if going for the film folk then pls RED built a portable HD-SDI recorder at a breakthrough pricepoint that records in Redcode to flash-memory - this would be a perfect gadget for all the people with handycams(especially with the new sonys)....
no doubt that the small Red will be a breakthrough in many terms, but still announcing a professional pocket camera will leave many people sticking to the sonys, panas etc.
Why?
Simply because if it's going to be a camera like the "small" SI - basically a box with the sensor, rudimentary controls with an external LCD - then this will be a very limited market...
I can't go to a client with this sort of camera shooting a documentary/image filmetc. This small SI is an addition to the full-size version, or usable for special occasions, but not a run-gun camera at all....
if it's gonna be like the small SI then i have to save money and try to get a red one.
it's the simple question if red will produce a camera for one-man entreprises and/or video-hobbyists, or a camera for film-folk who'd love to have a small version of their big cameras for special use...
just my thoughts..
cheers
stefan
ps.: if going for the film folk then pls RED built a portable HD-SDI recorder at a breakthrough pricepoint that records in Redcode to flash-memory - this would be a perfect gadget for all the people with handycams(especially with the new sonys)....
Well put, I'm not waiting to see if it really is a "pocket camera". I know there are a lot of us ready to throw down on the XDCAM EX. I'm one of them.
lordtangent
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Like Eugenia, I'm also an HV20 owner. I recently did a post on HV20.com of what my "dream cam" would be. Keep in mind, I wrote this as a "wish list" relative the the HV20. Many of these are features the RED already has of course.
I'm posting a slightly re-worked version here to see what the RED crowd thinks.
This first item is something that IMHO would be a big improvement over even the RED ONE. And compared to any regular "video" camera out there, it would be a big step forward. LOG sensors have long been used in machine vision, but until now they were not too practical for stuff like video. The LINLOG technology mentioned in feature #1 changes all of that.
1. LINLOG™ sensor for extended dynamic range while keeping low noise in the shadows and midtones. 2k-3k res 2/3"-1" bayer pattern sensor. (to allow for good over sampling on 1080 material.) I'd like to have some control over setting the level of LINLOG highlight compression also. (A few pre-sets like "None, Mild, Medium, Strong" at the very least) It might be worth considering an "improved" RGB filter scheme, similar to the Panavision Genesis, where R and B get a more love. (But that would probably only make sense if the sensor had enough over sampling)
2. Hard Drive and Flash based recording
3. 1-60 fps progressive frame rates.
4. RAW capture with wavelet compression, I-frame only. The cam could do decoding internally to send video out to HDMI. A software codec would allow editing on software NLE of native RAW files.
5. Proper full manual controls, even if they are menu driven.
6. Data port that allows direct copy to external hard drive (for downloading data) or direct recording to external HD. (Preferable eSata or FireWire800 for best speed.)
7. Decent "focus ring" and variable speed zoom controls.
8. This last one is wacky but worth throwing in there. How about a multi-connector for a "breakout box". That way we can have all the full-size connectors when shooting in more of a "studio mode", but still keep the body of the camera small. "Pocket" "Field Mode". Custom breakout cables or boxes could be built that support the connectors people use most. And only a single well bundled and easy to route cable would have to be hanging off the cam. Regardless of if this makes it in or not, you are going to have to be very picky about what connectors you include if you want to keep the body a reasonable size.
My preference would be that this "dream cam" be designed with price in mind. So, a non-removable lens is OK with me, as long as it's good and keeps the price down. (It would reduce the chance of getting dust on the sensor to zero also) Another option would be c-mount lenses. I think old TV c-mount lenses can cover a 1" sensor (the old TV camera tubes were 1") If all the manual options need to be menu driven to reduce the cost, I'm OK with that also. (As long as I still get full manual control)
As for wavelet compression, Rather than "Redcode" Red could get on board with the BBC and use Dirac and/or Dirac Pro codec (or a minor variation tuned for use with RAW files). Support from more vendors like RED Cinema increases the odds of Dirac Pro becoming a more widely accepted standard. (Universal standards=good for everyone) And it's great for Red. 90% of the development on Dirac is already done and there are no licensing fees. The BBC has even published hardware description language for hardware codecs. Hardware based encoders and decoders are starting to ship. If RED Cinema provided the "RAW Dirac Pro" improvements back to the OSS community, they would become instant heroes with the OSS crowd. It would also make it much easier for third parties to support their cameras.
So, what do you think?
I'm posting a slightly re-worked version here to see what the RED crowd thinks.
This first item is something that IMHO would be a big improvement over even the RED ONE. And compared to any regular "video" camera out there, it would be a big step forward. LOG sensors have long been used in machine vision, but until now they were not too practical for stuff like video. The LINLOG technology mentioned in feature #1 changes all of that.
1. LINLOG™ sensor for extended dynamic range while keeping low noise in the shadows and midtones. 2k-3k res 2/3"-1" bayer pattern sensor. (to allow for good over sampling on 1080 material.) I'd like to have some control over setting the level of LINLOG highlight compression also. (A few pre-sets like "None, Mild, Medium, Strong" at the very least) It might be worth considering an "improved" RGB filter scheme, similar to the Panavision Genesis, where R and B get a more love. (But that would probably only make sense if the sensor had enough over sampling)
2. Hard Drive and Flash based recording
3. 1-60 fps progressive frame rates.
4. RAW capture with wavelet compression, I-frame only. The cam could do decoding internally to send video out to HDMI. A software codec would allow editing on software NLE of native RAW files.
5. Proper full manual controls, even if they are menu driven.
6. Data port that allows direct copy to external hard drive (for downloading data) or direct recording to external HD. (Preferable eSata or FireWire800 for best speed.)
7. Decent "focus ring" and variable speed zoom controls.
8. This last one is wacky but worth throwing in there. How about a multi-connector for a "breakout box". That way we can have all the full-size connectors when shooting in more of a "studio mode", but still keep the body of the camera small. "Pocket" "Field Mode". Custom breakout cables or boxes could be built that support the connectors people use most. And only a single well bundled and easy to route cable would have to be hanging off the cam. Regardless of if this makes it in or not, you are going to have to be very picky about what connectors you include if you want to keep the body a reasonable size.
My preference would be that this "dream cam" be designed with price in mind. So, a non-removable lens is OK with me, as long as it's good and keeps the price down. (It would reduce the chance of getting dust on the sensor to zero also) Another option would be c-mount lenses. I think old TV c-mount lenses can cover a 1" sensor (the old TV camera tubes were 1") If all the manual options need to be menu driven to reduce the cost, I'm OK with that also. (As long as I still get full manual control)
As for wavelet compression, Rather than "Redcode" Red could get on board with the BBC and use Dirac and/or Dirac Pro codec (or a minor variation tuned for use with RAW files). Support from more vendors like RED Cinema increases the odds of Dirac Pro becoming a more widely accepted standard. (Universal standards=good for everyone) And it's great for Red. 90% of the development on Dirac is already done and there are no licensing fees. The BBC has even published hardware description language for hardware codecs. Hardware based encoders and decoders are starting to ship. If RED Cinema provided the "RAW Dirac Pro" improvements back to the OSS community, they would become instant heroes with the OSS crowd. It would also make it much easier for third parties to support their cameras.
So, what do you think?
Kurt A
Member
I want Jim to come up with something that was as revolutionary as -oh I don't know- Nikon reflex camera's.
A very basic film camera that is more like an DSLR camera, but solid and in a form factor as still camera's where once, like the Nikon FE's and all those things whose simplicity and sturdiness everyone praised.
Something to hang around our neck at all times, at all cost.
Something ready to shoot in 0.5 seconds.
So I agree with Garth.
A very basic film camera that is more like an DSLR camera, but solid and in a form factor as still camera's where once, like the Nikon FE's and all those things whose simplicity and sturdiness everyone praised.
Something to hang around our neck at all times, at all cost.
Something ready to shoot in 0.5 seconds.
So I agree with Garth.
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albatross
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It will have a wrist strap, because it is going to be small (like a TX1.)
Jim seems to have some pull at Canon (look at the Canon ads.) I still can't find a Canon TX1 in the stores. I wish they had reservation numbers, like RED does. Then you would know when you could expect to get one. I think Canon is waiting till Turkyday to release the TX1 in mass. Is there someting Jim can do for us (me), since he is in tight with Canon?
albatross
It will have a wrist strap, because it is going to be small (like a TX1.)
Jim seems to have some pull at Canon (look at the Canon ads.) I still can't find a Canon TX1 in the stores. I wish they had reservation numbers, like RED does. Then you would know when you could expect to get one. I think Canon is waiting till Turkyday to release the TX1 in mass. Is there someting Jim can do for us (me), since he is in tight with Canon?
Hey Redusers/-wanters. My first post here as well! The mini should be named hvx+m2 killer, or at least it very well could be. Look at the great lenghts indie filmmakers and hobbyists have gone to mount slr and other lenses on to their dv-cameras. Therefore I think it would be wonderful if this camera has an aps-c sized sensor so the FOV is the same as on a RED and most dslr. That would make the camera great for preproduction for a RED feature, and super for all those slr-shooters. Plus I think there are many tmes more SLR lenses out there than say s16. Im not sure if it is possible to cram such a sensor into a pocketable version, but im more into a A-Minima form factor anyways.
So my wishes for a 1/2 RED(could be the name, hehe...) is:
NO fixed lens, you simply choose your mount when you order
2k on APS-C sized sensor
stereo input plus headphone
variable framerates a la HVX, but only progressive as RED ONE
CFstorage with the possibility to record to an external drive
jogwheel
A new super small production pack for this one, not ONE
Great forum btw!
So my wishes for a 1/2 RED(could be the name, hehe...) is:
NO fixed lens, you simply choose your mount when you order
2k on APS-C sized sensor
stereo input plus headphone
variable framerates a la HVX, but only progressive as RED ONE
CFstorage with the possibility to record to an external drive
jogwheel
A new super small production pack for this one, not ONE
Great forum btw!
krost-audiovisual
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Hi again,
well, sony's new standard in handycams is out and the footage looks very very good, given the fact that the price is even lower than some hdv camcorders!
now, what's it going to be, RED??
shalt i wait for the NAB or shalt i not....
to be honest: redcode is far better than 35mbs xdcamex. Period.
But: what kind of camera will RED build?
Assuming that RED doesn't want to offend their Red One customer, i predict that it will do 2k, but almost certainly with a fixed lens.
Why? Because i think that many many people would rather buy the small RED if it had a removable lens than the RED One.
4k is perfect, but for the next 2-3years 2k will be fine - taking into account that other manufacturers will challenge RED One and what is 3 years in R+D : AGES!!!!
As for the price: will it be significantly below 10k?
Still assuming that it has a fixed lens (in the first release) it can, but if it's a removable version, Jim would face a revolution of the existing crowds, if such a camera would be half the price of the RED One incl necessary add-ons with features almost the same except for frame rates and resolution.
So: Jim and all the others at RED: Tell us what's in store!
there's no sense in waiting any more. Panasonic and all the others will announce their xdcamex killers fairly soon. And you're the best in knowing
how to build a hype around a camera, so that people are willing to wait 'til approx Autumn next year.
Me, i can't wait 'til april with a temptation like xdcamex around the corner, especially if i get a decent price for my old fx1 incl add-ons without hearing a word of a camera that will render any 35mm adapter useless, and giving me the freedom of working in 4:4:4......
just my 2 cents
cheers
Stefan
well, sony's new standard in handycams is out and the footage looks very very good, given the fact that the price is even lower than some hdv camcorders!
now, what's it going to be, RED??
shalt i wait for the NAB or shalt i not....
to be honest: redcode is far better than 35mbs xdcamex. Period.
But: what kind of camera will RED build?
Assuming that RED doesn't want to offend their Red One customer, i predict that it will do 2k, but almost certainly with a fixed lens.
Why? Because i think that many many people would rather buy the small RED if it had a removable lens than the RED One.
4k is perfect, but for the next 2-3years 2k will be fine - taking into account that other manufacturers will challenge RED One and what is 3 years in R+D : AGES!!!!
As for the price: will it be significantly below 10k?
Still assuming that it has a fixed lens (in the first release) it can, but if it's a removable version, Jim would face a revolution of the existing crowds, if such a camera would be half the price of the RED One incl necessary add-ons with features almost the same except for frame rates and resolution.
So: Jim and all the others at RED: Tell us what's in store!
there's no sense in waiting any more. Panasonic and all the others will announce their xdcamex killers fairly soon. And you're the best in knowing
how to build a hype around a camera, so that people are willing to wait 'til approx Autumn next year.
Me, i can't wait 'til april with a temptation like xdcamex around the corner, especially if i get a decent price for my old fx1 incl add-ons without hearing a word of a camera that will render any 35mm adapter useless, and giving me the freedom of working in 4:4:4......
just my 2 cents
cheers
Stefan
sceneeast
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I'm with Deepcode on this one.
If RED were to announce they were making a similar camera to the XDCAM EX, but offered larger sensors 2/3" (or greater), 2K images, 4:2:2 and a better compression codec, I'd foget the Sony hands down! Less than $8K USD.. Sign me up!
I'm hoping the term "Pocket Cam" used by RED is really a figure of speech.
Something around the size of the EX would be great!
Under $10k Sign me up I would buy two of these.
Patrick Tresch
Well-known member
My 2cents...
If RED is going to build a PPC, it will be meant to give movie makers a high end tool (not like a Sony Z7 plastic cam) wich could be a great B camera & for more descrete shootings condition like docu / small places / even base jumping (why not).
It phylosophy could be s16mm like. With true optics.
Fully equiped (optics/power/media) less than 6kg, 35X12X15cm...
S16mm sized captor 2k would be great. But 3,5 down scaled to 2k also but would be much more trickier for focus pulling... I think s35mm sensor size would be impossible to get sharp image when DOP is alone on tricky hand held situation (like on every documentry). And optics/matte box would increase way too much the weight of the camera.
Call me a dreamer...
Patrick
See you!
If RED is going to build a PPC, it will be meant to give movie makers a high end tool (not like a Sony Z7 plastic cam) wich could be a great B camera & for more descrete shootings condition like docu / small places / even base jumping (why not).
It phylosophy could be s16mm like. With true optics.
Fully equiped (optics/power/media) less than 6kg, 35X12X15cm...
S16mm sized captor 2k would be great. But 3,5 down scaled to 2k also but would be much more trickier for focus pulling... I think s35mm sensor size would be impossible to get sharp image when DOP is alone on tricky hand held situation (like on every documentry). And optics/matte box would increase way too much the weight of the camera.
Call me a dreamer...
Patrick
See you!
Roberto B
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me likes this post.. especially that 1st part.. especially those timeline details.. suberb..
Roberto B
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me likes this post.. especially that 1st part.. especially those timeline details.. superb..
Petr Dvorak
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And what about to offer both lens options: fixed or removable version. Choose yourself.
I am definitelly waiting all the time for REMOVEABLE!!!
This form factor is near
I am definitelly waiting all the time for REMOVEABLE!!!
This form factor is near
krost-audiovisual
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yep, the new sonys...
well, i don't know what to think about them..
will it be really that improvement regarding DOF?
i always thought that a good part is depending on sensor size as well as on lens..
oh, btw, as stated you can't just plug cour canons and nikons in front of the body - sensor size
and: who really is thinking about getting these at a price point comparable to the xdcamex with a higher bitrate and higher resolution??? i'm not, i'd rather attach my letus extreme to a xdcamex...
and it's hdv, it's hdv, it's hdv...
if i had to choose between them and waiting a year for a red mini i'd wait
just my 2 cents...
well, i don't know what to think about them..
will it be really that improvement regarding DOF?
i always thought that a good part is depending on sensor size as well as on lens..
oh, btw, as stated you can't just plug cour canons and nikons in front of the body - sensor size
and: who really is thinking about getting these at a price point comparable to the xdcamex with a higher bitrate and higher resolution??? i'm not, i'd rather attach my letus extreme to a xdcamex...
and it's hdv, it's hdv, it's hdv...
if i had to choose between them and waiting a year for a red mini i'd wait
just my 2 cents...
Petr Dvorak
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I showed sonys only as concept example and form factor and definitely not because of its weak guts :wink:
Yep forgot about HDV etc etc
Yep forgot about HDV etc etc