Regarding the RED-Mini: feature request

[Jeremy Hughes]

If RED can really bring the price down on 4K camera, they can do it again with a 1080p or 2K camera.

People were just getting to shoot 2K movies on wider spread when RED announced their camera. So why not 2K when lower enders are shooting on 1080p now?

RAW would be even easier than RGB. REDCODE RAW at higher compression ratios seems good to me.

 

[Steve Gibby]

Background and newsbreak links
On 4/16/07, at the opening of NAB, I was very fortunate to be the very first journalist to break the news on all five of RED’s announcements: the new RED cine lenses (18-50 zoom, primes), the Peter Jackson "Crossing the Line" production, the Professional Pocket Camera, RED 4k displays, and RED 4k projectors.

I interviewed Ted Schiliwitz at 9:05am on 4/16 at the RED NAB tent, and he gave me the first news about the Professional Pocket Camera, and RED 4k displays and projectors. Shortly after that I broke that news via a post on the Studio Daily blog, here on RED User, and subsequently in my RED at NAB, Part 2 article on the Studio Daily web site that day.

Timeline of my publishing & posting on NAB 2007 opening day:

RED @ NAB, Part 1 (Studio Daily web site, live online at 9am Pacific Time, 4/16/07)
http://www.studiodaily.com/main/news/7959.html

Studio Daily Blog entry, 4/16/07, 9:41am Pacific Time, breaking news from Ted Schilowitz interview: http://www.studiodaily.com/blog/

RED User forum entry, 4/16/07, 9:51am Pacific Time, breaking news to RED User about my interview with Ted Schilowitz: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1560

RED @ NAB, Part 2 (Studio Daily web site, posted mid-day on 4/16/07)
http://www.studiodaily.com/main/news/7981.html

-----------------------------------

Name: “Professional Pocket Camera” – not “RED Mini”
I think we should get the name of the announced camera correct – as Ted named it in my news breaking interview with him. If you read what I reported in the first newsbreak of the new camera, in my Studio Daily blog entry, I stated: “ A new Professional Pocket Camera (no other details yet)”

If you read what was published shortly after that, on the same day, in my “RED @ NAB, Part 2” article in Studio Daily, I reported: “RED is developing a Professional Pocket Camera – a miniature camera. Ted couldn’t give me any further details on it, but said there would be more info released in the coming weeks.”

Since the time I broke that news, the term RED Mini has been coined by some. I have to assume that name grew out of my reporting Ted’s descriptive phrase about the camera of “a miniature camera”. The correct name of the camera, as stated by Ted and reported by me, is “Professional Pocket Camera”. An acronym of PPC would fit, but “RED Mini” isn’t the camera’s name.

To my knowledge, since that opening day of NAB, nobody from RED Team has officially stated any more definitive information about the Professional Pocket Camera.

Keeping the above in mind, let me reiterate what I reported: Ted said that RED would be developing a "Professional Pocket Camera". He gave no other details and no hints as to RED's design intentions for the camera, it's size, resolution, function, market, etc. Everything that has been posted about the Professional Pocket Camera on any forum since the news broke, is merely conjecture by interested individuals - but that's cool, that's the function of forums.

Since we only have the name of the new camera to go on, the words “Professional” and “Pocket” hold some definite clues. IMO a professional camera needs to have pro-level features and capabilities. Ted didn’t say “Prosumer Pocket Camera”. What those professional features end up being will remain to be seen. The word “Pocket” is also a huge clue. To me, that implies that this professional camera will fit in a pocket of some kind, right? What size pocket is anyone’s guess at this point, but I think “Pocket” implies that it will not be as big as RED One, which certainly won’t fit in any pocket.

I think a PPC is a great next camera move for RED - even though I don't have the foggiest idea of the parameters and tech specs RED is considering for the camera. IMO, in the development process for RED One, RED has shown that they have their finger on the pulse of the motion media industry. IMO RED is listening. The threads that have been started about the PPC have some very cool feature requests, and I think many of the suggestions have good merit.

RED has only officially stated what I reported on 4/16 - that they are developing a Professional Pocket Camera (exact words). I'm sure they're listening, I think many of the feature requests are logical ones, and I'm also sure RED will say more about the PPC when they feel the time is right.

For my production business, I'll be interested in hearing more about the PPC. If the PPC can dovetail with my RED One cameras for fieldwork in related genres and sub-genres, I'll take a real close look at it.

 

[Mark A. Beal]

The word “Pocket” is also a huge clue. To me, that implies that this professional camera will fit in a pocket of some kind, right? What size pocket is anyone’s guess at this point, but I think “Pocket” implies that it will not be as big as RED One, which certainly won’t fit in any pocket.

Just how literally they take the "pocket" designation is the big question. What I'm really hoping for is something akin to an A-minima, but of course that's going to require a pretty big pocket.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

I think we are seeing here different ideas of what people want in a smaller camera. For some, they basically want what would be the RED ONE with the rear two-thirds chopped off, basically the 4K 35mm sensor and a small RED zoom in front, something probably akin in size to a DSLR.

Other people see something like a very small palmcorder with a very small zoom lens, but maybe 4K in order to be different enough from a prosumer HD camcorder.

Other people would be fine with just 720P/1080P but want the larger 35mm sensor, but then you're back to the RED zoom and something around the size of a DSLR (though you don't need the bulk caused by a mirror shutter & viewfinder).

And none of these would fit into any but the largest of pockets...

I think, for size reasons, you have to work around the size of the optics needed for the size of the sensor desired, i.e. what's the smallest zoom lens possible for a 35mm cine frame sized sensor (half the size of a 35mm still camera sensor)?

In the point-and-shoot digital still camera world, not DSLR's, what's the largest sensor being used? Are any of them the same size as the ones in a DSLR? I notice my Canon PowerShot A620 has a 7.3-29.2mm zoom lens, which suggests to me that the 7MP sensor inside must be half the size of a DSLR sensor. So would the Pocket Red be something like that, but capable of 24 fps or higher?

 

[Steve Gibby]

Just how literally they take the "pocket" designation is the big question.

A very good point...we don't know how literal RED is speaking when they say "Pocket". In reading about military history, there was a class of battleships that were slightly smaller than the normal ones that were categorized in slang terms as "pocket battleships". They obviously wouldn't fit in any pocket, but the "pocket" designation simply meant that they were smaller than a normal battleship.

Until RED explains their thinking a bit further we won't know exactly what they mean by "pocket". The cool thing is that the many suggestions from interested parties in the months ahead will probably play a big part in the eventual specs and parameters of the PPC - the same as they have with RED One.

 

[Steve Gibby]

All good observations David...

I think RED has recognized an unfilled or under-filled niche in the motion media industry somewhere below the service floor of RED One - and intends to fill that niche with the PPC. Since RED developed RED One with extensive end user input, I would expect them to approach the development of the PPC in the same way. In view of that, I'd say to everyone: "Keep the PPC suggestions coming!". IMO the PPC will end up being a combination of what RED perceives as a market opportunity, coupled with, and defined by the features that a convergent motion media industry asks for, before and during the development process. That's been the pattern of RED One development...

I have my own set of capabilities, features and ergonomics I'd like to see in the PPC, some of which you touched on in your post, but I'm still thinking about what I'd like to see in the camera...

 

[Craig Schober]

red-mini, ppc, red-nano, etc.

red-mini, ppc, red-nano, etc.

i understand your intention to steer the forum away from misinformation and speculation but unfortunately red hasn't given us any other options. until i get some more specifications, this camera will be a red-mini to me. professional pocket camera is not only a horrible "name" but a confusing (power pc) acronym and counter intuitive when speaking of any current products except a dslr. right now all names are appropriate because you don't know any more about the specs than anyone throwing names out there.

when red throws out a few crumbs of info initiating wild speculation, it's only natural that we get a few different camps each wanting something small and powerful. but that's what makes this forum interesting and i'm sure red is watching and taking notes.

but i'll play along...how about a dslr, literally.

the bottleneck in redone isn't the recording medium but rather the processing power. more processing power will give much needed higher frame rates and quicker redcode processing. and processing power is the only thing that can be miniturized and at the same time made more powerful (within this product cycle) all with little or no added expense (moore's law). so all the electronics are shrunk down, the recording medium is small solid state and the lens can be still be removable 35mm. put a huge sensor in there for stills and scale it to 2k or even 4k for 24fps, 30fps, 60fps and 120fps. maybe apply a little more compression if needed. i would take more compression if it would get me 250fps.

it wouldn't be great "video/digital cinema camera" but it would literally be a professional pocket camera that directors, dps and even hobbyists who already have 35mm glass would be interested in for blocking rehearsals, stunt cams, location scouts and all around travelling without having to deal with heavy and expensive pro equipment.

i would guess a $4500 pricepoint for all this. lens not included but red would be happy to sell you a new set of lenses made for this cam. anyway, they could also market to still photographers and maybe include an hdr mode for stills.

 

[Kevin Halverson]

Well, if everyone is voicing their wish list, I would want the 'PPC' to be a S16 sized sensor array with 2k+ receptors and the same frame rate capabilities as the Red One. I would prefer a range of lens mounts but at a minimum a PL. I would prefer that it not be a truncated Red One and that it not have a S35 sized array, what I want is the digital equivalent of a S16 film body.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

To me, and this is of course just speculation, "pocket camera" implies compact and easy to use. It's going to have one or two options for zoom lenses. It's going to have autofocus... It's going to be the ultimate ENG, run-n-gun, workhorse camera for a single operator.

I don't know if it will be a full 4K camera with a S35mm sensor... I kinda doubt that. My gut feeling is it will have a 2/3" or S16mm size sensor and will shoot 2K REDCODE RAW to FLASH media. Probably CF or 1.8" SSD.

 

[chuck colburn]

I like mechanical design. Form following function etc. So I'll leave the electronic wish list to others as that is out of my league. What I envision the PPC as is something similar to the modular nature of medium format cameras. Take the Hasselblad for example. A basic camera body but with a small but high rez screen mounted on top ala the ground glass system used on these type cameras. That way one could view from the top for low angle shots but also mount different optical eyepieces for other configurations. The film magazine would be replaced with different types of quick change media storage (micro drives, chips or whatever is the next greatest thing to come along). Battery packs that intergrate into the base of the camera and also serve as quick release plates for tripod mounting. Removeable hand grips etc. And since the sensor area is going to be smaller then the 2 1/4" square film format, the whole camera would be scaled down in physical size. I would think an interchangable lens mount should be retained even if new glass had to be developed for the use. I can see the use of Leica or Contax rangefinder lenses as viable.

 

[Steve Gibby]

i understand your intention to steer the forum away from misinformation and speculation but unfortunately red hasn't given us any other options. until i get some more specifications, this camera will be a red-mini to me. professional pocket camera is not only a horrible "name" but a confusing (power pc) acronym and counter intuitive when speaking of any current products except a dslr. right now all names are appropriate because you don't know any more about the specs than anyone throwing names out there.

The facts I illustrated and linked to in my post were:

1) RED calls their new camera a "Professional Pocket Camera", not a RED Mini, or any other name

2) I reported accurately the name of the new camera when I broke the news about it on 4/16/07

So based on your post, you don't like the name that RED has given their camera - Professional Pocket Camera - and you intend to call it whatever you'd personally like. Be my guest on that, call it what you'd like, but I'll continue to refer to it by the name the maker of the camera has named it. The name of the camera isn't in question, the makers have clearly named it, it's the specs of the camera that have not been defined.

 

[pat@hpnc.com]

Well lets face it until Red gives out some more news there is going to be a LOT of speculation. And lots of bad information etc. Thats what fills the gap in accurate information. And while it clutters the forum some it does not really hut anthing.

 

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

Guys, guys... relax.

My original post was simply a thought I had in my mind about what *I* wanted from a small camera. This doesn't mean that the name I used, or the features I mentioned would be what RED is going to do or not.

 

[Finner]

I like to call it my red pocket mini buddy. Would you like to reach into my pocket and get it? I promise it is in there and not just a pocket with the inner lineing cut away. Any takers?

 

[Eugene]

my opinions

my opinions

you don't like the name that RED has given their camera - Professional Pocket Camera - and you intend to call it whatever you'd personally like. Be my guest

Obviously it is going to be called Red Two. There is no way Red is going to name their camera Professional Pocket Camera.

I can see the use of Leica or Contax rangefinder lenses as viable.

It would be logical to assume RED will use the Mysterium CMOS in the PPC. There is no need to reinvent the wheel. To make the camera pocketable RED will probably have to use 35mm rangefinder lenses. (I am for a built in 10x auto focus zoom lens, but I think most people want interchangable lenses, and RED is going to make what most people want.)
Something like the zoom used on the old film using Contax G2 would be compact yet professional. RED isn't going to use an off the shelf lens rangefinder lens, but there lens will be much more like a rangefinder in size than a 35mm SLR lens. I would guess that RED would come out with a zoom lens first. The whole idea behind the PPC is its small size. Carrying around a whole set of prime lenses wouldn't make sense. A 50mm equivalant prime might make sense for someone that wants a fast lens and absolutely hates zooms.

It's going to have autofocus

I hope so.

it will have a 2/3" or S16mm size sensor

It is cheaper to use the Mysterium than to develop a 2/3 sensor.

will shoot 2K REDCODE RAW to FLASH media. Probably CF

I agree

until i get some more specifications, this camera will be a red-mini to me.

Me too. I know it isn't going to be a shrunk down Red One. If they want us to stop calling it the Red Mini, then Red should tell us to stop. Red Mini is cooler than Red Two, but me thinks they will call it Red Two. PPC is a lame name.

i would guess a $4500 pricepoint

Sounds good. The target customer should be everyone that owns a copy of Final Cut Pro. I have FCP and a G4 Mac. When the time comes, I will probably upgrade to a Mac book pro when they make on that has a Blu-ray burner in it. About a million people have FCP and a Mac. FCP users can afford about $5,000 bucks for a system. No one is going to rent the PPC as far as I can see. PPC is a camera you carry with you 24/7, not a camera you rent for a job. If Red keeps the price right, they could easily sell a million. What FCP user wouldn't want to upgrade to the PPC. Not many FCP users can afford or want to part with thirty grand for a RED ONE, even if it is the most bad ass camera ever. I'd rather have a new car.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

It is cheaper to use the Mysterium than to develop a 2/3 sensor.

Or would they just fab Mysterium sensors in a smaller size with the same pixel density? Not reinventing the wheel, but create a 2K S16mm sized Mysterium. Should be a lot cheaper to produce due to smaller chip size - more chips per wafer and that usually translates to higher percentages of successful yields. Using a smaller version of the existing design could prove to be extremely cost-effective and much cheaper to produce than the S35mm Mysterium.

Me too. I know it isn't going to be a shrunk down Red One. If they want us to stop calling it the Red Mini, then Red should tell us to stop. Red Mini is cooler than Red Two, but me thinks they will call it Red Two. PPC is a lame name.

Who knows what they'll call it. They may very well call it the "RED Pro Pocket Camera" and that isn't going to matter one way or another. RED doesn't care what we all call it or what we speculate about. They're not going to confirm, deny, or dictate anything we talk about in relation to it at this point. When they're ready for us to know more, they will spill the beans.

 

[pat@hpnc.com]

Could they not just use a standard 35mm still camera mount? Nikon or Canan etc? That seems to be what most people in the price range want. Not a new mount with a few lenses for it.

 

[chuck colburn]

Still camera lens mounts are fine so are cine type mounts although the "C" mount might not make sense even if the camera is only a 2K version as most "C" mounted lenses won't cover the format. What I think makes good sense is to keep the basic front plate (sometimes refered to as the standard) as shallow as possible to allow as many different type mounts as possible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lens_mounts

 

[Bruce Allen]

Still camera lens mounts are fine so are cine type mounts although the "C" mount might not make sense even if the camera is only a 2K version as most "C" mounted lenses won't cover the format. What I think makes good sense is to keep the basic front plate (sometimes refered to as the standard) as shallow as possible to allow as many different type mounts as possible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lens_mounts

That is totally sensible, Chuck, I hope they go that way. Matter of fact, I hope they just, you know, just tell us. Surely they must have decided on this one way or the other by now?

Does anyone know if there's a way to get email alerts if Jannard or someone posts an announcement? I tried subscribing to threads on the Mini but then I just get updates on everyone's heated debate speculating about lens mounts. And then the threads keep dying and new ones starting, all about the same thing, over and over again. It's like some kind of crazy wheel of fortune. I realized that I am spending way too much time trawling through threads on reduser just because I like the company and want to know about what they're up to.

Yes, I've learned a ton from everyone, but things like this Red Mini / Red Pocket Pro camera thread don't seem to do much. There have been many threads on this topic, begging for simple info, so far with zero return. Anyway, I'm quitting the forums for a little bit (except to deliver on HV20 test promises). If Jannard posts something on page 10 finally revealing what their decision on lenses for the Red PPC / Mini / Two / WHATEVER IT IS CALLED, can someone please PM or email me? I will send you beer.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Poi Boy]

For me, as I've said before, It has to be 4K and I would be very surprised if they went to a totally different sensor.
Aloha
-A