REDucation

[Andrew clemson]

Hi Luca and Andrew,

That's a good idea - we should shoot the guest speakers for each REDucation class, and make them available for the students of previous classes online as the full speeches, part of the continuing education, and a do cut down short version for public viewing.

+ Ted

Sounds great. If you have someone shooting parts of the class, like Peter Holland was doing at #001, it could be particularly useful to get any Epic demonstrations (Ie, assembly tips, back focusing tricks etc) made available aswell.

Epic/scarlet cliff notes that get worked into #'s 002 and up would no doubt be invaluable too.

Hope thats not too cheeky to ask, I realise how much work goes into organising the class as it is!

cheers, and I hope #002 is as much fun as #001 was!

Andrew

 

[Steve Gibby]

Just curious:
At these REDucation seminars, are the alternative RED camera setups and field production techniques for hybrid EFP/cine production, as they're used in non-hardlined EFP and EFP, being taught? If so, who is teaching them, and what are their qualifications? If not being taught...why not?

When you get outside of L.A. there's a very significant portion of non-narrative RED production done with small, mobile crews, using streamlined camera setups, 35mm stills lenses, eye focusing the camera, no matte boxes (using screw-on filters) and no follow focus units (hand racking focus). The scalability and broad utility of Epic and Scarlet (especially the DSMC models) will exponentially increase the percentage of this hybrid EFP/cine production.

I think RED should think outside the (matte) box and teach all potential styles of using their cameras. Most straight cine-style background guys won't have the foggiest idea of how to teach hybrid style camera setups and production. The L.A. narrative cine-style production scenario is fine for L.A. - but there's a broad diversity of alternate RED equipment setups and field techniques in use worldwide. RED has been, and is now, building convergence cameras with the broad utility to be setup and used in a wide array of styles, genres, and industries. IMO only teaching on-set, narrative cine camera setups and techniques would be falling way short of the mark for the needs of a huge portion of potential RED camera owners and users of RED One - and certainly of Epic and Scarlet.

Food for thought...

 

[Stephen Williams]

Hi Gibby,

As DSMC will be also used by newspaper photographers I believe ENG should also be included.

Stephen

Just curious:
At these REDucation seminars, are camera setups and field production techniques for hybrid EFP/cine production, as they are used in non-hardlined EFP and EFP, being taught? If so, who is teaching them, and what are their qualifications? If not...why not?

When you get outside of L.A. there's a very significant portion of RED production done with small, mobile TV crews, using streamlined camera setups, 35mm stills lenses, eye focusing the camera, no matte boxes (using screw-on filters) and follow focus units (hand racking focus). The scalability and broad utility of Epic and Scarlet (especially the DSMC models) will exponentially increase the percentage of hybrid EFP/cine production. I think RED should think outside the (matte) box and teach all styles of using their cameras. Most straight cine-style background guys won't have the foggiest idea of how to teach hybrid style production.

Food for thought...

 

[Steve Gibby]

Hi Gibby,

As DSMC will be also used by newspaper photographers I believe ENG should also be included.

Stephen

Hi Stephen,

I didn't ask about ENG - Electronic News Gathering. ENG hasn't been a significant part of RED One production for obvious reasons - the need for RAW to RGB rendering, quick turnarounds, tight deadlines, etc. I asked about hybrid EFP/cine style production. RED One has been used widely in Electronic Field Production (EFP), specifically non-hardlined EFP, and quite often that involves the hybrid style camera setups and usage techniques I described. Some examples of genres using hybrid RED setups are: adventure travel, alternative sports, some music productions, wildlife, nature, some aerials, some underwater, many documentaries, stock footage, and many more genres.

If the option for selectable 1080p RGB recording makes it into the final specifications for the DSMC cameras, and its in a codec that can be edited quickly in ENG editing systems, thus enabling quick turnaround ENG production, then by all means combination news photographers/motion shooters could put those DSMC cameras to good use.

 

[Raul Gonzo]

Hi Luca and Andrew,

That's a good idea - we should shoot the guest speakers for each REDucation class, and make them available for the students of previous classes online as the full speeches, part of the continuing education, and a do cut down short version for public viewing.

+ Ted

I love this idea.

 

[Luca Immesi]

Hi Luca and Andrew,

That's a good idea - we should shoot the guest speakers for each REDucation class, and make them available for the students of previous classes online as the full speeches, part of the continuing education, and a do cut down short version for public viewing.

+ Ted

Great. :thumbup1:

 

[Sam Winzar]

Hi Stephen,

I didn't ask about ENG - Electronic News Gathering. ENG hasn't been a significant part of RED One production for obvious reasons - the need for RAW to RGB rendering, quick turnarounds, tight deadlines, etc. I asked about hybrid EFP/cine style production. RED One has been used widely in Electronic Field Production (EFP), specifically non-hardlined EFP, and quite often that involves the hybrid style camera setups and usage techniques I described. Some examples of genres using hybrid RED setups are: adventure travel, alternative sports, some music productions, wildlife, nature, some aerials, some underwater, many documentaries, stock footage, and many more genres.

If the option for selectable 1080p RGB recording makes it into the final specifications for the DSMC cameras, and its in a codec that can be edited quickly in ENG editing systems, thus enabling quick turnaround ENG production, then by all means combination news photographers/motion shooters could put those DSMC cameras to good use.

That was my big suggestion at the end of REDucation. Not specifically EFP style REDs but a greater variety in the types of camera configurations that we get to see. That said, I ended up buying a lot of equipment after playing with it at REDucation such as the ET EVF Mount (listen to what everyone's saying, it's that good and worth the money!) and the Switronix dual battery mount (no powering down to swap batteries!).

Best of luck with #002. I must say I'm jealous as I'd love to do it all over again. Even just hanging out with large group of REDheads was a blast in itself.

 

[Steve Gibby]

That was my big suggestion at the end of REDucation. Not specifically EFP style REDs but a greater variety in the types of camera configurations that we get to see. That said, I ended up buying a lot of equipment after playing with it at REDucation such as the ET EVF Mount (listen to what everyone's saying, it's that good and worth the money!) and the Switronix dual battery mount (no powering down to swap batteries!).

Best of luck with #002. I must say I'm jealous as I'd love to do it all over again. Even just hanging out with large group of REDheads was a blast in itself.

Rather than just straight EFP-style setups (B4 adaptor & lenses), hybrid style usually involves lightweight (thus very mobile) camera setups, 35mm stills lenses (without MB or FF), eye focusing the camera, exposing quickly using zebras and histogram, and camera techniques that are a blend of EFP-style and cine-style. The mistaken notions that people who do hybrid style with RED are forced to by lack of "real budgets", aren't doing "top-level" production work, and aren't getting "top-notch" footage, are just that - mistaken notions - invariably fostered by those who've never done hybrid style production. RED builds modular, flexible, multi-style capable cameras - thus IMO a wide variety of camera setups and shooting styles should be taught at REDucation. Why build a multi-style capable camera system - then only teach cine-style camera setups and shooting techniques? RED just got the REDucation curriculum organized, so hopefully sometime soon they will expand it to also cover hybrid and EFP styles of camera setups and shooting techniques.

I hear you on RED camera accessories. For years now I've been a factory pilot for multiple accessory companies - ET, View Factor, and many others. I field tested the ET EVF mount you mentioned for several months before it was released to the public - along with about every other ET accessory of the last three years. My first RED camera is 0008, not 0002. My 2nd and 3rd RED cameras are also extremely early models. If you think about it, all of us very early RED camera adopters were also essentially "beta testers" of RED One - and happily so! If you ask me, Mark Pederson, Blair Paulsen, or any of the other real early adopters of RED One, if we have any regrets about being beta testers of the cameras, basically everyone was stoked to step up and be a pioneer along with RED Team. We were just fortunate to be in the right place at the right time - and to have made a good choice to make the leap along with RED Team.

Yes, there is definitely a brotherhood when you hang out with other "REDheads". You're in there now. That brotherhood is about to expand exponentially with the pending release of the new Epic and Scarlet models. But RED One will always be remembered fondly as RED's launching pad.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

IMO a wide variety of camera setups and shooting styles should be taught at REDucation. Why build a multi-style capable camera system - then only teach cine-style camera setups and shooting techniques? RED just got the REDucation curriculum organized, so hopefully sometime soon they will expand it to also cover hybrid and EFP styles of camera setups and shooting techniques.

an excellent point! Especially with smaller form factor cameras on the horizon, this would be an excellent addition.

I also think that doc shooters are like snowflakes - no two systems or methods seem to be totally alike - so doing something like bringing in two or three expert shooters to do a "show and tell" -- rather than a top-down teaching approach -- could be very interesting.

I ran an outdoor producers' workshop for the Boulder Adventure Film Festival these past two years -- shooters and producers talking with other shooters and producers, 3 panelists plus a rich range of experience in the audience -- and it was great to get new ideas for using gear (plus a host of other techniques, interviewing, post-tips, DIY options, etc.) in the field from other people doing interesting work. It would be cool to see a RED-specific offering like this...

 

[Steve Gibby]

Exactly Meryem...I agree 100%. I think your approach you described for the Boulder Adventure Film Festival is spot on.

Different genres of production with RED One necessarily call for a variety of lenses, accessories, and shooting techniques. Wise production teams using RED One simply assess what would be the very most logical and cost-effective shooting style, lenses, accessories, and techniques for each production (or portion thereof) - and proceed accordingly.

Traditional cine-style shooters often times have a hard time wrapping their heads around RED's flexibility and broad utility - because they approach the camera from the standpoint of their traditional lens/accessory/techniques paradigm. But it is a big production world out here - with a myriad of other needs. RED obviously gets that - they conceived of and built probably the most utilitarian-friendly pro camera system ever built - and Epic and Scarlet are projected to even further this new broad-utility paradigm.

It follows that everyone writing a book about using RED, making "How to" videos about using RED, and especially RED themselves, should be teaching all possible styles, setups, and techniques for using RED cameras. So far thats not happening...and I think entities teaching RED setups and usage need to re-evaluate their offerings, and expand them to also address the needs and solutions of the non-cine portion of the motion media industry, who are using RED cameras extensively - namely the hybrid and EFP production industries.

 

[Chris Parker]

i couldn't agree more steve......

 

[Raphael Varandas]

Very nice Steve... 100% agreed !!

Thanks Bro

 

[Tai Wah Lim]

Steve, hope all is well with you. Other than special people with your skill and passion and finding a niche for getting the best out for your line of work, I find it hard to convince ENG type users to switch to Red for shooting say normal documentary works.

I find it a lot easier to change the huge amount of people shooting with HDcam right now for budget feature film projects - ie from my experience in Asia, to switch to the Red Cameras. When we say budget in Asia - we are talking micro budget here. Like Ted said in one of his video, most of them shoot like video. After staying around for the first couple of shoots and showing them the right way and color correcting the images, they are hooked - and still within budget ... maybe slightly more but getting a result that equal shooting with film.

For those shooting TV Commercials and MTV with film, the need to change is obvious.

Lim

 

[Steve Gibby]

Thank you for the kind words Chris and Raphael...

Tai Wah Lim,
All is well here and hopefully with you also. ENG type users, specifically news shooters, have been slow to adopt RED One (except for certain b-roll), mostly because of their tight time deadlines on their type of work.

Its the non-hardilined EFP shooters (like myself) who have embraced RED One widely. I'm not talking about people who want/need to shoot with B4 2/3" HD EFP/ENG zooms in 2k, but rather those who edit their programs in post (longer turnarounds), and want/need to shoot in 3k and 4k (usually Quad HD). These camera setups are hybrid, lightweight, and mobile, using 35mm stills lenses, no matte boxes or follow focus units, eye focusing the camera, and setting exposure quickly using zebras and histogram.

Examples of television genres shot with RED One with hybrid rigs using non-hardlined EFP camera techniques are (but not limited to): alternative sports, adventure travel, tourism, wildlife, documentaries of various genres, cultural programs, nature, mobile stock footage, mobile 2nd unit, basically a wide range of non-narrative television programs.

Yes, narrative production, whether it be for television or features, is usually shot with cine style rigs using cine style techniques. But that's only one portion of the motion media industry.

With Epic and Scarlet just around the corner, and their proposed ability (if it stays in their final specifications) to feature a choice of RAW or RGB recording, small size, and the ability to accessorize and lens the cameras for whatever style of production you want/need to do, it makes sense to me to teach all of those alternate camera setups and shooting techniques - not just cine-style narrative setups and techniques.

I did the very first magazine published interview with Jim Jannard about the RED One camera (interview January 2006, published in Studio Monthly, 4/06 issue), in which I specifically asked Jim about the diverse setup and operational options for RED One - cine, EFP, hybrid, etc. - and he affirmed that was the intention of the R1 design. In fact, from the very beginning RED has had verbiage on their web site about alternately outfitting R1 for EFP style work, and there has been a "EFP/ENG for RED" forum here on RED User from very early on. There's a lot of R1 owners and users out here who have been doing exactly that over the 2+ years R1 has been in field use - EFP and hybrid setups and techniques - when their projects call for it as the best choice.

There's a reason a B4 lens option, 35mm stills lens option, genlock, zebras, 4 channels audio, pre-record function, RS232/12v bus, and many other EFP and hybrid style camera features are in RED One - so that those who choose to do EFP and hybrid production can accessorize their cameras that way if they - and many do. You simply don't see those features and capability on camera systems that were just meant for straight cine style work. Epic and Scarlet will be even more hybrid and EFP friendly than RED One has been.

All of the above said, it makes infinitely logical sense for RED to be also teaching hybrid and EFP camera setups and techniques in their REDucation seminars - and not just cine style setups and techniques.

Its long overdue for hybrid and EFP production with RED One to cease being overlooked and ignored by "How to Use RED One" seminars, DVDs, and books - and take their rightful place among the viable setups and techniques taught for RED One usage.

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

Gibby,

I think you will be happy with our "Hybrid module" in our upcoming DVD.. But something tells me you know that already!



Jay

 

[Steve Gibby]

Yup...:thumbup:

 

[Stephen Williams]

For those shooting TV Commercials and MTV with film, the need to change is obvious.

Lim

Hi Lim,

I shoot mainly Commercials, Last week using a 5DMK II, Thursday & 5 other days in October confirmed on film, One day possibly on RED (production co wants) but agency wants 35mm, very little in it cost wise. RED is just a tool.

Stephen

 

[Steve Gibby]

RED is just a tool.

Hi Stephen,

You seem to have drawn a very definitive conclusion on RED One - that its "just a tool". I'm curious what you're basing that opinion on. If I'm not mistaken you don't own a RED One camera and never have. Is that correct? I'm curious, since you have such a direct opinion on RED One, and so this forum can visualize if your conclusion is a directly RED-experienced opinion, what is the exact extent of your actual hands-on experience using a RED One camera? For how many projects, what genres, and how many actual shooting days?

There are many here, myself included, who have owned RED One cameras for a long period of time (for me its three RED cameras for over two years now), have used them extensively in a broad range of productions, styles and genres, have really pushed the RED camera hard to see what it can do, have deep experience using many other camera systems, and view RED One not as "just a tool", but rather as a very versatile, scalable, and adaptable Swiss Army Knife of a tool - a very different view of RED One than you have expressed.

If you're going to state an opinion like that about RED One, then please share with this forum how you arrived at that opinion - including the exact amount of your actual RED One usage.

Steve

 

[Tai Wah Lim]

Hi Lim,

I shoot mainly Commercials, Last week using a 5DMK II, Thursday & 5 other days in October confirmed on film, One day possibly on RED (production co wants) but agency wants 35mm, very little in it cost wise. RED is just a tool.

Stephen

Stephen, we do have our fair share of resistance when we started. Once we got the Directors on board, the agency went along.

As Gibby said, Red is not just a tool. To me, Red is a revolution in Film making.

Gibby, I am also interested to see what Jay comes up with his hybrid shooting style.

Lim

 

[Steve Gibby]

Gibby, I am also interested to see what Jay comes up with his hybrid shooting style.

As Jay mentioned, I already know what he will have in his new Hybrid for RED One module for his RED 101 DVD. I recently spent three days with Jay working on that module, being shot while I demonstrated the equipment setups and techniques I use, and providing multiple footage samples of my hybrid RED work.

I believe that people who use RED One will greatly benefit from all the modules in Jay's RED 101 DVD, including this Hybrid module. Check it out when you get a chance...

I see that Jay has started a new thread about his new Hybrid RED module. Here's a link to a new thread Jay started about the Hybrid Module in his soon to be released RED 101 DVD:
http://205.234.135.241/forum/showthread.php?t=35643