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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED's home 4k Projector under 10k, Sony's home 4k Projector over 20k!!

Projections

Projections

There are a number of rational reasons for CE companies to bide their time before releasing UHD projectors - HDMI 2.0, DLP chip availability from TI, more content, more ways to access content, etc.

I have been quite happy with LCoS in the home as the slightly softer look makes the MPEG-2 compression artifacts less annoying and keeps low resolution source material from looking completely horrid. Sadly, that more forgiving character makes it a poor choice for grading high quality material in a post suite where the DLPs rule. FWIW, the LCoS also has excellent fill factor so there is very little screen door effect vs DLP which is nice if you sit close to the screen as I do.

If, in fact, TI won't have UHD DLP chips available to the big CE vendors until 2015, it makes the timetable for availability of the Sony successor to the 1000ES even more critical. Sony has the most evolved portfolio of UHD/4K display technology, they have been doing LCoS for a decade and as a business entity they need UHD/4K devices to start selling in quantity sooner than later due to their financial challenges.

Cheers - #19
 
I'd be a happy platypus if Sony brought back their SXRD line with 4K sets. They had the tech worked down to near flatscreen size (circa 2008 or so) with an acceptable depth. I'm one of the few owners of a still-working SXRD set and I still like it better than my other HDTVs. It just looks more natural than the flatscreens of today. Plus the 2ms refresh rate is snazzy for games.
 
I'd just like to take a moment to echo some of what I've heard throughout this thread.

My participation in this forum differs from most of yours, as I'm not an industry professional, and I lack much of the technical understanding of commercial-grade projection systems. I represent an organization that is fundraising to support a small theatre's transition to digital projection equipment.

We've been doing these (stupid) fundraisers for about a year to prevent this theatre from closing; the theatre has quotes exceeding $60k (and less than half of that in the bank), but last year I stumbled across something about this (allegedly disruptive) projector that has the potential to "save" small theaters. I went to the group and said "Let's just buy this one. Judging by the specs, it's better, more efficient, and costs less than half of what that gigantic one you're looking at will cost, plus it's way more flexible, and we can use this theatre for more stuff, if we go this route," but this purchase is going to have to be made in the next few months, and, despite a year lurking on these boards, I don't see any concrete (or encouraging) information on the release of this device.

We've raised $30k to-date, and we'd love to buy this fabled projector.

I wish you the best of luck in the rest of your development, and you've probably got things covered, but if there's anything I can do to help you complete this device, holla@me.
 
Earlier this month Sony announced (at IFA show in Germany) a new, lower priced, 4K projector (model VPS-VW500ES in Europe and rumored to be called the VW600ES in the USA). US price not yet announced, but is expected to be around $13K MSRP. This new Sony 4K will be showing next week at the CEDIA Expo in Denver along with the replacement for the flagship VW1000ES (replacement model rumored to be the VW1100ES). Both of these Sony projectors support 4K @ 60Hz and include HDMI 2.0 inputs and are compatible with the Sony 4K player and the PS4, both of which can be used as 4K players on the Sony 4K download service. Sony has also announced a upgrade for the VW1000ES to add HDMI 2.0 and support for 4K @ 60Hz packaged with a Sony 4K player and an extra lamp for the projector. Red also has a booth at CEDIA and I am wondering if the Red consumer projector will show up there, or will it all be about the Redray player and Odemax download service. Anyone here heard anything about Red's plans for CEDIA Expo?
 
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This thread just cracks me up when I read the title of it. Sony is about to release 2 more 4K projectors to RED's one which we still have no clue what a potential release date will be. The projector could be a 5-6 year project. Can anyone say, RedRay? Guaranteed, Sony will have 3 of there's available soon and one in that $10k range. Wouldn't be surprised if RED shit cans their unit all together.
 
mikeburton said:
This thread just cracks me up when I read the title of it. Sony is about to release 2 more 4K projectors to RED's one which we still have no clue what a potential release date will be. The projector could be a 5-6 year project. Can anyone say, RedRay? Guaranteed, Sony will have 3 of there's available soon and one in that $10k range. Wouldn't be surprised if RED shit cans their unit all together.
Click to expand...

So you think provoking RED with your "comments" will make their projector ready for market faster?

Like RED has hundreds of projectors in the warehouse, with all the certifications, just waiting until you called them out???

Cheers - #19
 
Chad, welcome to RedUser. I believe the Red projector will be a transformative piece of equipment (if it's released relatively soon). We all know that Independent theaters are a vital part of the business cycle for quality films coming from smaller distributors, and that the film-to-digital transition is threatening to bankrupt many of these. So I hope that either Red or someone else comes to market soon with a solution for you in your budget range. I also hope you can wait it out until then.


Chad Gainor said:
I'd just like to take a moment to echo some of what I've heard throughout this thread.

My participation in this forum differs from most of yours, as I'm not an industry professional, and I lack much of the technical understanding of commercial-grade projection systems. I represent an organization that is fundraising to support a small theatre's transition to digital projection equipment.

We've been doing these (stupid) fundraisers for about a year to prevent this theatre from closing; the theatre has quotes exceeding $60k (and less than half of that in the bank), but last year I stumbled across something about this (allegedly disruptive) projector that has the potential to "save" small theaters. I went to the group and said "Let's just buy this one. Judging by the specs, it's better, more efficient, and costs less than half of what that gigantic one you're looking at will cost, plus it's way more flexible, and we can use this theatre for more stuff, if we go this route," but this purchase is going to have to be made in the next few months, and, despite a year lurking on these boards, I don't see any concrete (or encouraging) information on the release of this device.

We've raised $30k to-date, and we'd love to buy this fabled projector.

I wish you the best of luck in the rest of your development, and you've probably got things covered, but if there's anything I can do to help you complete this device, holla@me.
Click to expand...
 
Chad Gainor said:
We've been doing these (stupid) fundraisers for about a year to prevent this theatre from closing; the theatre has quotes exceeding $60k (and less than half of that in the bank), but last year I stumbled across something about this (allegedly disruptive) projector that has the potential to "save" small theaters.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't count on the Red projector until it's a real product. I bet Christie, Barco, Sony and the other projector companies have leasing programs out there that would allow you to temporarily get a theatrical projector from them now, and then wait and see what Red does in 2014 or 2015. I don't think the initial $10,000 Red projector is intended for theaters that seat 400-500 people.
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
So you think provoking RED with your "comments" will make their projector ready for market faster?

Like RED has hundreds of projectors in the warehouse, with all the certifications, just waiting until you called them out???

Cheers - #19
Click to expand...

I don't care what RED has in the works ready or not, Blaire. I'm stating that the titile of the thread and original poster was calling out Sony's product as being inferior to a product that has been teased and baited by RED but has yet to see the light of day. In the meantime the projectors that Sony are releasing are here and now something that if you are a 4K advocate you should be pleased about. And they are beginning to drop in price roughly equivalent to what RED's originally stated price was supposed to be on their unit. Lets not get this twisted Blair, I'm not "calling them out" as you put it, I'm stating a FACT. If that happens to contadict your opinion and upset you, then that's your oversensitivity getting in the way of what this forum should be about in the first place which is not kissing a camera manufacturers ass by defending their position, but rather pushing them to compete in this part of the market which they have stated they want to be a player in and have announced their commitment to but have not actually PRODUCED units for sale years after announce. I don't personally care how difficult the "Process" is. It's just not acceptable to over announce and under deliver and WE should expect more from a company as large as RED is now. It's not 2006 anymore and the same "we don't know what we are doing" line doesn't fly anymore. If the projector was/is too much for them to handle they shouldn't have baited it as long as they did. If we want this projector to EVER see the light of day we can sit back and just wait or we can demand it as promised. You choose your method and I'll choose mine. But in all honesty you are coming off like a big time fan boy here Blair, who can't help but defend this repetitive cycle of announce, LATE delivery, announce, announce, no product in the store...and the cycle continues. By doing so you aren't contributing to progress, your contributing to complacentcy.
 
Just because the price point is similar doesn't mean the projectors are comparable. No one is shipping laser projectors yet. I think christie and Sony both announced models, but they are only 'home theater projectors' in that they are going to cost as much as a house.
 
Alec Morris said:
Just because the price point is similar doesn't mean the projectors are comparable. No one is shipping laser projectors yet. I think christie and Sony both announced models, but they are only 'home theater projectors' in that they are going to cost as much as a house.
Click to expand...

Agreed, but comparable to what? How can you compare a real life product to a box and some specs on an NAB flyer? Image quality is all that matters at the end of the day. Whether its DLP or Laser, whatever. If RED ships a laser projector that you and I can buy tomorrow then we can talk comparisons here. IF those said specs turn out to be everything we wanted and more then fantastic, but again, the problem with over announcing and under delivering is one will never know if your said product would be the best because it doesn't really exist yet. Maybe the specs are great but until you have both units available to compare there really is no comparison. The shipping unit wins.
 
Frustration

Frustration

Mike - I hear you, and I can assure you that you are not the only person frustrated by how long its taking. Frankly, if you had phrased your previous post a bit differently I wouldn't have posted what I did.

FWIW, you seem to be positing that if only the community pushed harder RED would do more. I am suggesting that RED is doing everything they can already (for a number of compelling business reasons), making your supposition illogical - so I said so.

Nothing personal intended, you have every right to your opinion, please allow me the same courtesy.

Cheers - #19
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
Mike - I hear you, and I can assure you that you are not the only person frustrated by how long its taking. Frankly, if you had phrased your previous post a bit differently I wouldn't have posted what I did.

FWIW, you seem to be positing that if only the community pushed harder RED would do more. I am suggesting that RED is doing everything they can already (for a number of compelling business reasons), making your supposition illogical - so I said so.

Nothing personal intended, you have every right to your opinion, please allow me the same courtesy.

Cheers - #19
Click to expand...

There's nothing personal here, Blaire. Your opinion is as valid as mine and everyone else's here and I respect you for yours. Again, I wouldn't grant Sony or Panasonic or Arri any more slack then I grant RED here due to the circumstances in which the product was advertised. I would love more options for less money as well just like everyone else here. But, RED deserves honest feedback from their CUSTOMERS or "family" as has been stated by RED. If there customers/family aren't happy about their progress, or lack there of, they deserve to hear about it. Not to be defended and patted on the back. I understand positive re-inforcement is good to a certain extent, after all a company is comprised of living, breathing people like you and I. So some empathy is necessary and generally just a nice thing to allow for. However, I think it's safe to say we are past that point with this product and RedRay.
So, I for one will say, I'm an honest RED customer who is unhappy that resources weren't allotted appropriately to this project to meet expectations to the announcements you projected on its behalf. And if you intend to keep my business in the future, I expect realistic expectations set for future products including already announced products. Or, I will simply move my business to the company that can fulfill this need. I'd prefer to not have to do this but I'm frankly tired of being baited along here.
 
As someone who is eagerly awaiting the RED laser projector, it does get frustrating. I think the worst part of it all was that the projector made no appearance at NAB. I'll be walking through the CEDIA exhibition next week, I often do and it's in my home town this year, and I see that RED is an exhibitor, so will definitely see what they have in store. There is also a large presentation on projection technology going on and several industry players, including Sony and Barco, are taking part in this presentation. It would be a shame for RED to miss it.

That said, none of the Sony offerings are interesting to me. The 1000ES just has too many shortcomings and the newly announced 500ES projector is a step in the wrong direction with inferior specs to the 1000ES and targeting a lower price point.

Something RED has already done with their projector, even though it was a prototype operating at 2K with a mismatched screen for 3D, is to show a working laser projector. That is something Sony and Barco have yet to do. Not only that, but even though the RED projector is a two-piece unit, it's still more compact than what Christie is offering.
 
Jeff, Barco has been showing working 4K laser projector hardware since last year and Sony has shown their non-digital cinema laser-backed projector this year.
 
For comparison, NEC's 4K laser projector theatrical projector reportedly works on screens up to 30' wide and will cost $170,000:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/behind-screen/cineeurope-nec-launches-170000-laser-574394


The first Christie laser projector is going to the Cinerama Dome in Seattle in January of 2014:

http://www.geekwire.com/2013/paul-allens-cinerama-theater-install-worlds-laser-projector/


It's clear to me that making theatrical-quality laser projectors is very, very difficult and is not something you can do quickly and easily with off-shelf equipment. I'm very concerned to see how well they can work with existing DCI standards.
 
Oh Marc, if you could read about how bad it was in the beginning of laser projector development, you'd probably think RED and everyone else has it easy. Things were rough and nasty in the 80's/90's and violence was not unheard of in the development process. Stuff got stolen, labs were broken into and destroyed, people were mugged, and the traditional projector companies were playing things Mafia-style.
 
Michel Hafner said:
What shortcomings?
Click to expand...

It's basically the same old projector that Sony has been putting out for years, problems and all. Their SXRD home theatre projectors haven't really changed internally or performance-wise since the beginning except for the incremental upgrades in HDMI, refresh rate, etc. and Jeff only gets interested when something goes way beyond what came before.
 
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