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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED's home 4k Projector under 10k, Sony's home 4k Projector over 20k!!

I finally got my hands on the Sony 1000ES projector last week. Very nice projector. I want to say it's priced too high, then again, it has no competition in the market right now. Here in the USA, if you find a seller willing to deal or put together an equipment package, you can usually get it for less. Best price I've seen for it here is $18K.

I'm going to hold out a bit for RED's projector. Hopefully it will be cheaper than the Sony, but it has so many features the Sony doesn't have -- like simultaneous passive 3D (which requires a more expensive screen) and a long-life laser system so I don't have to replace bulbs ever 2500 hours. Sure, they can make all the claims about bulb life they want, but the fact is the first 150-200 hours the bulb is over-bright and then after about 2500 hours the bulb starts to noticeably decay. Not a problem for typical use, but for serious color work that doesn't fly.

There's also the "small" BARCO 4K. It's another $10K more than the Sony and it's nearly 3X larger. To me, neither one seems to produce a superior picture over the other...


I've come to a point where I really can't stall any longer on my projects and needs for the projector. My sound blocking insulation arrives wednesday, we start hanging drywall on the screening room next week. I'm probably going to put in a 1080p from Panasonic or ProjectionDesigns as a temporary solution. Knowing that when RED finally does ship, I'll need a new screen to go with the new projector.
 
Jeff, have you been able to profile the Sony?

Whats the model# for the Barco? I might go your same route, install a 1080P PJ for the time being and hold out for 6-9 months. In theory there should be somehting comparable for about half. Only reason for investing now would be if you can make your ROI before those PJs hit the market.
 
Perhaps Ketch will know something about this new 4K Projector..Ketch?
 
Have not been able to profile the sony. My hands on was rather limited, but enough to get a feel for the unit and explore some of its features. I have about 2 months yet before I must make a final purchase decision. Definitely feeling the pressure though. I'm worried that if I bite the bullet and get the Sony, I'll have to pass on the RED projector if it comes along in the next 12 to 18 months. That pesky ROI thing. And I don't think the resale value on the Sony will be all that great.

The Barco model is the DP4K-P, it's their "smaller" version of the DP4K projector for post production facilities. The projector debuted at NAB and they were using one in the DI suite at the Canon booth. ...Sadly, it was my only reason for walking into Canon territory this year. Oh, and I had to look at their new large format printer.

Peter's suggestion is pretty tempting! :) In the end, I don't know if it would actually save me money, or at least not enough to make it practical, but a few days in Japan could be fun.
 
Frank Cueto said:
Thats the one. Plus its 4096x2160 IE DCI cinema Spec 1.91 like tehr ed sensor. Its also very close to being capable of P3 from what I ahve been able to gather. Some people say it wont work, some say it will. I am trying to get a loaner...
Click to expand...

Hey Frank.
Where are you getting your info from?
Here is the info on the acceptable input signals from the tech specs of the projector:
4K resolution upscaling : Yes - 3840 x 2160 (QFHD)
Acceptable Video Signals : Composite video, Y/C video, 15 kHz (RGB/Component) 50/60Hz; Progressive component 50/60 Hz; DTV (480/60i, 480/60p, 575/50i, 575/50p, 720/50p, 720/60p, 1080P24sF(48i),1080/50i, 1080/50p, 1080/60i), HDMI inputs only: 1080/60p, 1080/24p
I'm not seeing even 2K, let alone 4K.
To me it seems, that it only does the HD upscaling to 4K.
There is not even a quad SDI 4K input on this projector. So, it just leaves HDMI, if it accepts 4K at all.
 
Can't post the image of the manual from my cell, but the PJ accepts 4096x2160 at 24p over hdmi.
 
The 1000ES accepts 4K input via HDMI and its native resolution is indeed 4096x2160. I've seen it accepting 4K input and displaying it. With my own eyes. Well, 3840x2160 UHD. Full 4096x2160 is a different matter, I haven't been able to get clarification if it will do it or not. Will take UHD 2160p up to 30fps.

There is too much focus on the upscaling in the marketing, IMO. But that is just the reality right now until viable 4K content is available. Yet another reason for me to pause on this projector as an option... It's 4K abilities seem to be limited, no better than what is available on the just now shipping crop of UHD/4K TV's. This is what makes it hard to buy this projector, or any of the current displays... 4K is indeed coming, but until H.265 delivers and we get HDMI 2.0, we're only getting part of what we want. No 50/60Hz, UHD colorspace, 4K in 3D, etc.. until HDMI 2.0 happens. To me, these are big reasons to wait for RED's projector. ...And wait until I buy any UHDTV. I ordered the $1200 Seiki 50" 4K, but I canceled my order on the Sharp PN-K321, even though I really need a new monitor and prefer it be 4K.
 
I know RED has thrown around the price tag of $10K for their one day projector, but, recently RED has stated many price tags that have gone up significantly, cough dragon sensor. My point is specs are specs and nothing more until you can order, and receive it in the time you need to use it. The Sony is a really nice projector.
 
The 30Hz (or 30P) limit of the current 4K projectors and TVs already on the market is the limitation of the HDMI standard. The manufacturers know that consumer does not want to deal with 4 cables.
FYI - this Sony PJ is based on the same SXRD technology as the "big brothers" and could theoretically accept the 4-port SDI / DVI-D board for full uncompressed 4K input at 12-bit and up to 120 Hz.
But that board would add another $5K to the price tag (at least) and require specialized (read non-consumer) playback devices...

I am not jumping on the 48P roadmap anytime soon, and as such 24/30P is more then enough for me ATM...

P
 
The Red projector is still not here 1 year later. RED jumped the gun way too early. HDMI 2.0 is being worked on right now.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
Full 4096x2160 is a different matter, I haven't been able to get clarification if it will do it or not.
Click to expand...
It supports both 4K formats, broadcast and theatrical.
 
Gunleik Groven said:
RedRay + Odemax + Projector = full chain

It is worth waiting for, that is my guess.

But the silence is disturbing.
Click to expand...

This may or may not be the case. This is all just what we were told a long while back. Things change and appear to have changed again since that announcement and although i expect RED to be late on every product they so eagerly announce "full chain" as you describe is having a product in hand and available to profit from today, not in the next...fill in the time blank. In the time you get your RED projector versus the time you could be charging for your Sony projector you could pay off the Sony and "upgrade" to the RED projector when it finally appears and is shipping to the masses. Its all relevant to time & money. Specs are just specs you guys. None of it matters or is worth waiting for when there is absolutely no word on the products release. If you can wait, that probably means you don't have the business to support a screening / grading room to begin with.
 
Exactly. I have been enjoying my Sony VPL-vw1000ES for over a year now. No problems with it at all and a fantastic picture. In 5 months or so Sony will be selling a 4K server for $599 and will be distributing 4K content over the internet. Odemax has a programmer perfecting its platform but apparently has nothing else. Sounds like a company in search of capital and no takers. a business that depends on too high a fee structure for content providers and commercial showers. Its one week till May and still no Redray. But wait. Red has raised the price to $1750. The projector has been put on the back burner, I assume because of unresolved technical issues and no ability to come close to a $10K price point. Meanwhile I will be watching the NBA playoffs upscaled to 4HD with a picture on my Stewart Snomat 100 screen, a combination that makes the screen disappear and gives me a window as if I were there. Sure I will have to replace the bulb in the fall. No laser. Big deal. when do you guys think the Redray will ship and when will Odemax get content and be up and running? and what HT consumer would care anymore? I don't.
 
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jake blackstone said:
Hey Frank.
Where are you getting your info from?
Here is the info on the acceptable input signals from the tech specs of the projector:
4K resolution upscaling : Yes - 3840 x 2160 (QFHD)
Acceptable Video Signals : Composite video, Y/C video, 15 kHz (RGB/Component) 50/60Hz; Progressive component 50/60 Hz; DTV (480/60i, 480/60p, 575/50i, 575/50p, 720/50p, 720/60p, 1080P24sF(48i),1080/50i, 1080/50p, 1080/60i), HDMI inputs only: 1080/60p, 1080/24p
I'm not seeing even 2K, let alone 4K.
To me it seems, that it only does the HD upscaling to 4K.
There is not even a quad SDI 4K input on this projector. So, it just leaves HDMI, if it accepts 4K at all.
Click to expand...

I was the HT projector guy at Sony for the last 10 years, so I have all of the details and specs.

Sony 1000ES takes 3840 thru HDMI at 30Hz and 4096 at 24 Hz. Per HDMI spec as mentioned previously. RED won't be bound by HDMI specs for the internal connections from RR to projector, so that would be a huge advantage in the market right now, but HDMI 2.0 will reduce that margin soon.
Full panel resolution is 4096 x 2160. Aspect is 1.896:1. Wide screen 1080 can be handled at 3840 (16:9), 3996 (1.85), or 4096 (2.35).
No real 2K. Just HT sources plus 4K.
The 4K scaler uses non-linear methods to do some pretty cool things for creating higher detail based on recognition of known objects in a huge database. This can also be applied to 4K signals.
DCI is pretty darn close to P3, not exact. Also, there is no color management, pretty important to most red users with any grading ambitions.

2 DisplayPorts on a newer version (Sony GT100) allow for 4096 at 60Hz, but it will cost you $50K. Probably not helping pull any triggers for anybody here. This model is designed for the simulation market. I posted more about this model elsewhere in the forum.

Of course, Sony will be working on newer models, and the playing field will be changing soon. Back in the first 1080P projector $30K Qualia 004 days, the next 1080P model was a $10K version codenamed the Ruby. CEDIA in September is normally the time for new Sony projector introductions. There have been some exceptions to that, but I suspect they won't want to jump the gun before HDMI 2.0 without some type of instant upgrade program. It should be very interesting to see what we can see from Sony and maybe RED by about September. So far, I don't have all that much interest in any other projectors. New laser models are turning my head a bit, though.

The 1000ES and the GT100 make the best projected images Sony has made so far for screens under 220 inches. But these are still not really designed from the ground up for professional use. I can understand why laser (or something other than traditional lamp engines) plus color management would be a better choice for grading and for what most of the redusers are looking for.

"Back burner" doesn't mean they aren't working hard, and I am sure they realize that what would lead in 2012 won't be enough in 2013/14. If business plans allow, I would be watching Sony in September, then watching RED for reasons to wait a bit longer if needed.
 
Thank you Rob. That is a wonderful bundle of information!

Wow. If you have any buddies at Sony still, please encourage them to hang out and chat with use - or let us know which forums they frequent.

Seriously, good, honest info is always what sells me on a product. Especially if it costs a lot of money.

Anyway, I have a little Sony 1080p HW30AES projector that is delightful and meets my current (modest) needs - and am waiting happily for HDMI 2.0 before even thinking about 4K. The real question for me is if HDMI 2.0 will support 4K 48fps & 60fps stereo... or more likely 4K 60fps mono / 4K 24fps stereo / 2K 48fps & 60fps stereo. Well, we'll see, I guess!

Based on how awesome my current Sony is, I'll probably just get another Sony unless anything else is radically better. Anyway, thanks for any part you had in the whole "making awesome projectors" effort while you were working there.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Thanks, Bruce. I always tried to be the user and installer advocate while I was at Sony. My thinking was: give people what they want and need, educate them about it, and they will buy it. The weak point in the system seemed to be getting US market feedback to be properly understood and acknowledged across the big pond. Some people have referred to this communication gap as the "salt water diode." So RED should have a communication, design and marketing advantage there.

If I had to buy something right now, I would still probably go for the HW50ES, at about $4K, which ups the light output from the 30ES to 1700 Lumens, and has a 1080 version of the data based processing used in the 1000ES. Plus improved focus. But not if I already had a 30.


What really intrigues me about the RED projector are the following possibilities:

Laser light stability: stable color, stable light output, no lamp replacement
Grading quality accuracy
RR built in, bypassing HDMI limitations
Blowing away Bluray image quality at lower bandwidths
Curiosity about further RED innovation.

I am dying for a demo in the LA area before too long.
 
Rob McDonough said:
I was the HT projector guy at Sony for the last 10 years, so I have all of the details and specs.

I can understand why laser (or something other than traditional lamp engines) plus color management would be a better choice for grading and for what most of the redusers are looking for.

"Back burner" doesn't mean they aren't working hard, and I am sure they realize that what would lead in 2012 won't be enough in 2013/14. If business plans allow, I would be watching Sony in September, then watching RED for reasons to wait a bit longer if needed.
Click to expand...
Rob. I don't believe RC works when the 1000ES is fed 4096 or 3840. I haven't tried it but others have so reported. Re CMS. I plan on setting the chromacity points through use of the coming Lumagen 4K processor just as I currently set rec 709 points by using the current Lumagen. Re back burner doesn't necessarily mean they are working on it either. I suspect they have given up on the consumer projector until such time as laser costs come down. If they were working hard on it, it would have been shown at NAB in some form or other. Ted speak has been a steady but gradual pulling away from the projector. At CES he told the press its 4 to 6 months away and that the commercial use model (no $10k price point alluded to for that model0 would come out first. At NAB, no display of the projector and a statement that the projector had been placed on the back burner. No distinction here between the commercial and consumer machines. Red has more important things to work on. I would agree. The commercial machine market is small and Red is simply not a mass market consumer company yet alone a high end consumer company. Reds bait was a $10K laser powered 4K machine. We will see 4K bulb machines from the traditional consumer machine players soon. Obviously there will be 4K machines at Cedia with delivery by or around years end. by the end of 2014 4k consumer machines below say $10K MSRP or so will be commonplace. RED has one advantage and that is it sell direct and by that method can lop off about 30% from others MSRP. But that's pretty much it to compete in the consumer sector. consumers aren't going to buy the redray and so that would have to be built into the projector further raising its cost. In the camera market Red is a leader, not a chaser. In the consumer let alone commercial projector market they are a chaser and here the technology is changing and for reasons that Red has absolutely nothing to do with. Red would have to chase and chase and I can just see TED huffing and puffing to the press that we are running a good race and we are going to catch them. Of course he would spin it just as the Russian press spun the results of a two horse match race years ago between a Russian horse and an American horse where the US horse won. Headline. Russian horse second, American horse next to last.
 
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