Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RedRay Info Please - Purchasing Decission

mikeburton

mikeburton

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 5, 2007
Messages
1,757
Reaction score
0
Points
36
Location
Sacramento CA
Can anyone who currently has a RedRay or has used it fairly extensively please chime in and give your honest feedback about the device ie Jeff, Tonaci perhaps? Specifically, besides the lack of distribution partner what are your opinions on the unit and how does it function / time to prepare material for it etc? Any/all info you could provde would be helpful. Is the HDMI 1.4 a real deal breaker on this unit going forward if it's not upgradeable? Are there any drawbacks that you feel in the current firmware that need to be addressed?
Thanks
 
HDMI1.4 is fine for most of the content. It doesn't allow more than 30fps @ 4k, so no HFR and 3D.

About the content. It's simple, you can encode your own content via the RCX-plugin. You copy them from a usb-drive to the internal HD and voila, you have 4k-playback.

The resulting files can be shared with others, they aren't protected or bound to one player. They're probably signed with your encoding licence key or something, i don't know.
 
Last edited:
Which data formats can be used as source material to be encoded into .RED movies? Is it only .R3D files, or can I take some format of movie output from Premiere Pro, say, and then encode it into .RED ?

Thanks,
Richard Weinberg
 
I encode UHD 90 megabit h264's to share my media. A modern computer can play these out to a display. Redray is not the only way to 'see' your work on a screen.
No rights management, but it's looking good other than that.
 
Richard Weinberg said:
Which data formats can be used as source material to be encoded into .RED movies? Is it only .R3D files, or can I take some format of movie output from Premiere Pro, say, and then encode it into .RED ?

Thanks,
Richard Weinberg
Click to expand...

Tiff sequences as well.... so pretty much everything.

You do not want to go from H.264 to REDRAY as the REDRAY format kicks H.264's ass... your making a huge sacrifice in image quality.
 
Richard Weinberg said:
Which data formats can be used as source material to be encoded into .RED movies? Is it only .R3D files, or can I take some format of movie output from Premiere Pro, say, and then encode it into .RED ?
Click to expand...
RCX can take DPX as input for .RED-encoding.
 
REDRAY is really a really simple system to jump into and start using. The player is intuitive, but has a couple glitches still. The comment about no further firmware development needs some clarification, IMO. While I understand they're not going to develop new features, there are some bugs that need to be addressed. I actually have been unable to load the latest firmware onto my REDRAY player -- not sure what's up, it reportedly downloads and installs, but then fails at the end of the install and I'm still showing the previous firmware. I have not tried recently, but it almost seemed more like a server or authentication error rather than a localized problem. I also quit trying after seeing on Clark Dunbar's REDRAY that there was a new menu navigation bug not present in the firmware I'm using.

We can encode to .RED format out of REDCINE-X using .R3D media as well as a couple other types -- DPX, Tiff. That's pretty much it for now. But it at least provides a means by which we can round trip with finished content back to REDRAY format.

It creates a package that's similar to a DCP, but .RED encoded. I would have liked to see a single-file distribution rather than a multi-file/folder package. At any rate, the packages are easy to share. Not so convenient to load, due to the file structure. It's somewhat of a load one at a time onto the internal storage deal if we do it from local media.

Playback onto a 3840x2160 display is scaled, not cropped. The player seems to scale very well, no issues. But going out to 4096x2160 on the Sony projector is pretty awesome. I'm getting the Sony 4K VW600ES projector sometime delivered sometime next week. Will be driving it at 4K via a BMD DeckLink 4K Extreme card and will also have the REDRAY connected along with some other HD sources. I'm kinda bummed that RED's laser projector seems to have gone AWOL with no info. I'm thinking that the whole REDRAY situation probably has a lot to do with it. Too bad, if they could have had a 4K laser projector for the price point they were saying, with good connectivity and no need for internal player, they could OWN this market right now. Sony is the only one playing at 4K in the under $40K price range and while they have two decent offerings, I wouldn't call them amazing.

REDRAY really needs a content provider. Odemax was looking promising and I think it would succeed as a service, if only they could get the distribution agreements and content into place. I think that was probably the hold up. You can have the most amazing service in the world, but if the studios and content owners don't want to participate in your model, then it just isn't going to happen. I don't know what's going on with Odemax right now. My last few emails to them have gone unanswered. I've heard rumors that they're defunct and they apparently made no appearance at Sundance, nor at NAB this year. Their site is still there, even though it hasn't been updated in almost 2 years.

In terms of hardware abilities, it is, as Jarred said it, the most capable 4K player out there. And that's fine and great, for now… We can all share our .RED creations amongst the .RED community members who own a REDRAY player. However, we can't play other media with it and until there is a content provider, I don't see too many people jumping onboard. There are other lesser 4K players out there at lower cost. They may be technically inferior in most ways, but they can play a variety of media and connect to an assortment of content services.

Looking at the hardware alone, and if there is ever to be an updated version to the REDRAY player, here is what it needs to have:

* HDMI 2.0 support.

* Digital audio output independent of an HDMI port (optical preferred). Too many systems out there are not so friendly with separate audio over HDMI when trying to integrate these things.

* RS232 control.

* USB3.0. I understand that USB2 is fine and dandy for REDRAY playback speed, but it's not so fine and dandy when I'm trying to load my content to the player. This also ties into the next bullet point. The player does have a eSATA/USB port on the rear, so that is helpful.

* Improved content / media management. I'd like a cleaner system for packaging the REDRAY deliveries. Everything in a packaged folder or single file where we can name it whatever we want. Drop them all onto an external drive, connect the drive and be able to just load and or play as we want. While the player has WiFi and ethernet, we can't connect to network storage or load media over the network. That would change if a content provider showed up, I guess.


I'm sure there's more, but those are the big ones. Oh, the IR remote and IR control for the unit feels like a kludge. But that's what we have because there's no serial control. Perhaps a USB to serial adapter can provide it? If we have proper documentation? The unit has IP control, but also no documentation there, either. It may be available in the REDRAY developer kit, but that was never something RED gave out freely.

The REDRAY is a great device if you want to conveniently showcase 4K content to a 4K display or projector without the quirks of a PC to do the same task. Not to say that the REDRAY doesn't have a few quirks of its own. .RED encoded media looks fantastic -- better than anything you're going to make with H.264 or ProRes4444. Also technically better than any 4K spec so far showing up for HEVC / H.265 or XAVC.

I think the lack of serial control, no documentation or direct ability to use IP control and the lack of a non-HDMI digital audio output in the current model are all oversights that potentially hurt the adoption and integration of this unit.

RED's choice to offer, in addition to the HDMI 1.4 4K output, the HD 1080p output and the Audio HDMI output, the HDMI 1.4 output can be used with an additional 3 HDMI's to represent each quadrant of the 4K image was a nice touch. Very friendly for multi-monitor displays and could lead to some creative uses for signage and whatnot. However, it would have been nice to see 4 x 3G HD-SDI connectors on there as well. Then we could have used them through some of the 4K systems out there now that can take multi-SDI for 4K @ 60Hz and other features. I don't think these should have been offered in place of the 4-quadrant HDMI ability, but as an additional option.

If the current player could be used to also play 4K DCP's, this thing would be a monster and could give current DCP servers some serious competition. The catch is the lack of outputs. Although, I think that was the intention of the REDRAY PRO (whatever happened to that?). It was the pro cinema server model and I believe it was able to play both .RED and DCP packages.
 
Maik Müller said:
HDMI2.0 is pretty new, the new HDCP-version isn't even ready yet. It just wasn't there.
Click to expand...

While true, I still think that RED and other electronics makers kinda missed the boat on this. The standard was all but ratified and had not changed, other than a few things dropped from the spec or re-organized into different sections, for well over a year before its approval. IMO, no reason that the primary HDMI output in this player couldn't have been designed to accommodate 18~22 Gbps and have the ability to update firmware to match the spec. Oddly enough, the only CE manufacturer out there that traveled down that road, for the USA market anyway, is Panasonic. Their 4K TV's from last year are firmware upgradeable to HDMI 2.0 with full 18Gbps bandwidth. Too bad their 4K TV's suck otherwise… Sony's are firmware upgradeable as well, but still limited to 10Gbps throughput. Their current round of projectors are HDMI 2.0 compliant and were released last fall, so it's not like HDMI 2.0 is too new to be implemented. Their more expensive displays and projectors that are older are upgradeable to the 2.0 spec via a board swap.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
Playback onto a 3840x2160 display is scaled, not cropped
Click to expand...

Are you sure? When you encode into RR, you can specify what you want to happen. I encoded some patterns and they were indeed cropped, not scaled. I don't have the player anymore, but I recall that being the case.

Some other comments. The UI is rendered at 1920x1080, so it is very small when outputting 3840x2160. Its full screen when outputting 1920x1080. The UI navigation could be better. If you have a lot of clips, it can take a while to go through the list. Folders would be nice to group content.

The studios have decided that HDCP 2.2 will be required to view their UHD content. This means that the only way to enjoy Netflix 4k, for a while, will be streaming directly to the display itself.
 
Stacey Spears said:
Are you sure? When you encode into RR, you can specify what you want to happen. I encoded some patterns and they were indeed cropped, not scaled. I don't have the player anymore, but I recall that being the case.
Click to expand...

I think you can indeed specify what you want to happen for scale/crop. It's actually been a bit since I've encoded anything for it.

Some other comments. The UI is rendered at 1920x1080, so it is very small when outputting 3840x2160. Its full screen when outputting 1920x1080. The UI navigation could be better. If you have a lot of clips, it can take a while to go through the list. Folders would be nice to group content.
Click to expand...

True on the UI. It does appear small on a 4K screen. On a 50" or larger at normal viewing distances it's not a problem, but it does seem awkward or wrong in relation to the total screen area.

The studios have decided that HDCP 2.2 will be required to view their UHD content. This means that the only way to enjoy Netflix 4k, for a while, will be streaming directly to the display itself.
Click to expand...

Yep. And HDCP 2.2 is not going to be something most can implement via firmware upgrade. It's a combination hardware/software system.
 
Reluctantly, I've just canceled my RedRay order. If I were in the business of impressing clients, I believe the Red Ray Player could pay for itself by getting even one additional job.

But I don't have clients other than myself and I'm so damned impressed as it is that I think I would lose the rest of my non-shooter friends if I exhibited anymore enthusiasm for shooting. Besides, there are so many new RED things I need that can help me shoot holes in my budget that I can wait till the movie is in the can and THEN impress the right people.
 
Back on the off-topic of HDCP 2.2. Once again, it was finalized at the same time as HDMI 2.0 but neither specification requires the other. In addition to media players and displays/ projectors supporting HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2, intermediate devices like AV Receivers need to support it too. Currently the only companies shipping HDMI 2.0 AV receivers are Onkyo and Pioneer. The Onkyo TX-NR636 is the only AVR that supports HDCP 2.2 and it offers 4K @ 60Hz and all the bells and whistles for $599. The down side is that it's an Onkyo.

The tech was approved some time ago, there's been plenty of time for electronics manufacturers to implement this stuff. However, they're just not that interested. I think they will as more 4K TV's get sold and I think the big push will happen when 4K Blu-Ray arrives, probably Q3 2015. We should also see HDMI 2.0 w/ HDCP 2.2 support coming in the next generation of video cards from nVidia and ATI later this year.
 
+1, many thanks Jeff for your posts. Made things very clear about REDRAY.
I will still get one, just not right now. RED has already some other things that have higher priority for me at the moment and i still don't have a 4k-tv here. ;)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top