Redmote PRO, pleaaase !

[Nils Ruinet]

So I finally decided to order the AL Canon mount, and received it a few days ago. It's great and I may end up using it way more than I initially thought.
The autofocus / touchfocus is a very nice feature that can be useful when you want to quickly get an accurate focus on something, but it isn't going to replace a focus puller anytime soon (and I never expected it would).

But now I can't stop thinking at what a Redmote Pro with a real full sized follow focus knob could do. This could be revolutionary, because one of the biggest issues of Canon lenses (bad focus marks and hard to use for a focus puller) would turn into their biggest upside : immediate wireless (or not) follow focus with no motor, no calibration, nothing to power, immediate feedback...

So please Red, I'm praying we won't have to wait years before we see this in the Red store !

And in the meantime, isn't there a way to open that market to third parties ? A focus knob (wireless or not) that would plug into a port in the back of the camera (maybe the ethernet port, it has to be possible some way) and would allow external control of the Canon lenses through the Canon mount. I think the birger mount did something similar using the impero. And even on Canon DSLR there are similar boxes that use Canons USB port to do this : http://www.okii.net/product_p/fc1.htm
I'm pretty sure guys like Viewfactor or Redrock Micro (with their upcoming remote follow focus that uses an iphone in its setup) would be more than happy to adapt their remotes to this system...
Imagine just plugging an impero to the back of the camera and having immediately a follow focus ready to use ? Fast, easy, inexpensive.

Or is there already some way to do this that I missed on the Epic ?

Cheers !

 

[Martin Weiss]

Jarred wrote a few weeks ago that they are working on it, and it takes longer than anticipated because they want to do it proper. I think RED is more than aware of our desire to hand over USD for a Redmote Pro...

 

[Nils Ruinet]

I know, but that's why I suggested opening the protocol to third party manufacturers...
Some have already managed to do it with DSLRs, so I can't imagine they couldn't do it with an Epic...

 

[Peter Stelzhammer]

I hope fixing and enhancing the antenna range and mote-reception for the existing hardware is higher on the list…

Waiting a bit longer (c'mon - aren't we used to it already?) but getting a rock solid and "finished" pice in first place sounds good to me.
In the meantime there are various other professional wireless focus systems out there - maybe not the kind of implementation you're looking for but field-approved and independent of the camera (and also firmware)…

 

[Nils Ruinet]

Yup, I already own a Bartech + M-One motor, I love them and use them a lot. ;-)

I just think one of the main interests of Canon lenses compared to PL lenses, appart from their price, is the fact that they include a focus motor. They (at Red) already know how to use it for autofocus and get the lens data, so my guess was it may be possible to plug a device (focus knob) in there that just tells the camera : "pull the focus to xx feet". Shouldn't that be easier than autofocus ? But maybe I'm wrong, I'm no engineer...

And I'd actually be happy with a wired Canon follow focus to start with, wireless can come later

 

[Troy Bakewell]

Bring it on! I too can't wait for to get my hands on the future RedMote Pro! It will be a total game changer IMO.

 

[Dominik Muench]

how good would that be !

Spoke to the guys at Panavision last week and they told me about a new camera system of theirs, which will be released later this year . apparently it has built in wireless and allows for the new range of panavision lenses to be controlled without the need of a preston or 3rd party follow focus as all the lens motoring will be handled internally from the camera, a 6K sensor too but they couldn't tell me more than that lol

 

[Naim Sutherland]

I hope it will be an improvement over the Birger system. Some things that were annoying with Birger will still be present, I think. For example, the motors will have a fixed max speed, and when the first exceeds that speed, they will feel the lag, and that will be annoying and throw off the flow of focus pulling. We had some trouble with some of the L zooms where the focus would stick, lag or jump in certain areas... that was quite problematic on the 70-200 L. Impossible to say where the problem lies... in the lens, in the birger, in the impero, we can't know.

Another big problem is a lack of witness marks. This is a big deal for 1sts who are used to eyeballing distance to figure out if they are ahead or behind the subject. If you are just looking at a soft image with a soft background it can be tough to know if you are ahead or behind without witness marks. I mentioned it in another thread and Jarred responded:

dealing with witness marks is going to be a whole different story when you can actually see what you are shooting when you look down on your controller..

I didn't ask for clarification since I was busy shooting, but I wonder if this means the redmote pro will feature a wireless monitor feed. It's sort of an odd statement because it suggests that in my past experience the 1st somehow hasn't had a screen. They have, but they still prefer to have both a good quality monitor as well as good quality witness marks, and I don't think that is an unreasonable expectation.

Plus, wouldn't a wireless feed have a delay on it? I think any time you add more latency into that system the 1st gets less and less happy.

I think you could throw up a little graphic of witness marks on the Redmote pro. It would basically need to be set up manually and require calibration on each lens with the redmote pro saving each profile. Just a stationary line indicating where you are, and a sliding scale of distance with large, contrasty numbers that moves in real time with the motors.

I just want to be able to hire the best people in town and provide them with the tools they need to have them feel like they can put their best work forward. My first on my last show struggled a bit on the Leica R series with their short focus throw and no decent witness marks, and she kept saying she was better than what I was getting, and apologizing if we had to go again for her. I knew what she was up against and told her she was doing a brilliant job, but it does put her in a tough spot when others behind the monitor are not so aware of all the ins and outs, so I felt kind of bad for her. It was really only an issue in a handful of crazy handheld, entirely markless chaotic shots, and her work was absolutely top notch otherwise, so I am happy and would work with her again any time, but it's tough to communicate those nuances to the EP and others at the monitor, and that puts the focus puller in a tough spot since she lives and breathes on her reputation in town.

 

[Mark Crabtree]

Just let me preorder already. Two please!

 

[Mauro Andreini]

What would really be great is a servo control system based around the style of the Motion Control.
Acceleration and speed under full control and a quick press of a button to memorize focus positions to be recalled during shots.

I am seriously thinking of designing one myself (if I can spare the time), as I had not seen one around yet.
After all that technology has been log used on CNC machinery and all sorts of robotics.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

I know, but that's why I suggested opening the protocol to third party manufacturers...
Some have already managed to do it with DSLRs, so I can't imagine they couldn't do it with an Epic...

The DSLR thing does not really work well. My neighbor has one and I played with it. He referred to it as useless, and I agree. It's steppy and lacks precision. It's not that easy to pull off what you ask, as those lens motors were not designed to move smoothly like that.

 

[Mauro Andreini]

BTW

BTW

If anybody is interested in getting their hand dirty here’s the description of the Canon AF mount electrical connections.

http://pickandplace.wordpress.com/2011/10/05/canon-ef-s-protocol-and-electronic-follow-focus/

 

[Nils Ruinet]

The DSLR thing does not really work well. My neighbor has one and I played with it. He referred to it as useless, and I agree. It's steppy and lacks precision. It's not that easy to pull off what you ask, as those lens motors were not designed to move smoothly like that.

Thanks Rob, that's an interesting point. My guess is that it will depend on lenses...
Anyway, I guess I'd better get my Bartech working with Canon lenses then... By the way, does anybody know if the focus distances displayed on the Touch-LCD are accurate ?

 

[brett mayfield]

waited a long time for the redmotes and none of them seem rock solid or finished and theyve been to red twice
this would be great for use on steadicam and would eliminate a lot of cables and extra hardware, but based on my experiences with redmotes so far and how excellently the cvolution works, ill not be trading for a red follow focus. id highly recommend either red team up with a third party or you find the f i z that works for you.

 

[brett mayfield]

i think youre right on.
i havent noticed lag with my camwave and cvolution combo.
cvolution has the cfinder which has the cameras image displayed with marks and menus all over the place. its a helpful device (though i always resort to a marshall or panasonic monitor and the camwave for the 1ac), but it definitely doesnt solve the problem. every ac i know likes to look at the operator and judge distance.

"If you are just looking at a soft image with a soft background it can be tough to know if you are ahead or behind without witness marks."
this is totally right and is perfect justification for including witness marks.

red does a good job of being ahead of the curve, but it doesnt mean that we should disregard traditional methods, especially those tried and true.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Thanks Rob, that's an interesting point. My guess is that it will depend on lenses...
Anyway, I guess I'd better get my Bartech working with Canon lenses then... By the way, does anybody know if the focus distances displayed on the Touch-LCD are accurate ?

No, it depends on the underlying algorithms that artificially create smooth movement by sending a series of pulses to the lens that at first glance are really something else. You are fooling the lens into doing something it does not want to do. It is extremely complex to get that right, and you'd need a tested file for each lens. then you need to fit this complexity into a little device that flies on your camera and doesn't fail too often. I know someone who actually did this, and it took him five years of R&D.

 

[Peter Stelzhammer]

waited a long time for the redmotes and none of them seem rock solid or finished and theyve been to red twice.

I get your point

And to be honest - I'm totally with you... But that's how things are with RED - or at least how they were until now.
It's possible (with very new releases even high likely) that you get what other people would call "Beta-Products" - that's just how it is...
BUT you get access to upgrade-paths via firmware and usually things evolve and get better over time, buy a camera and one year later
(if you got it delivered by then) you're able to use new color science, new software/workflows, more stable builds - and so on,
with the right choice even new sensors - with other companies you may get a "finished" product in first place (no offense though)
but you're usually stuck with it - or have to pay even for software/firmware-upgrades.
What's better for your needs is up to you in the end.

I'm still remembering the days when the RED One was a "new" camera, the whole RAW video-workflow was quite a pain (pre RCX era),
the post-world didn't really know how to handle it - and so on... now a few years later it is a rock solid camera you can really work with.
Will be the same with the DSMC system in like 1-2 years...

As for the mote - If you're stuck with a bad unit and they can't fix it I'd just take it back or try to get to the bottom of it with your Rep... it's a warranty-case after all.
Maybe doesn't change much for your personal unit but if more people are consequent enough to state the obvious (e.g. with the locking mechanism of the side handle, red-mote reception...)
they have no choice but to fix it - at least with future releases or over time... I still see RED more as a "start up", they're in the process of fast growth and high demand from customers
and I think it needs time to get everything sorted out down the pipeline - things will only get better over time as the experience will grow... better quality control will be implemented and so on.
I think it's a good sign that they don't rush things now... (that's just the direction I'm holding up my hope to - so I hope that really is where they put their focus on).

back to topic: I'd just use "traditional" focussing methods or action-proof 3rd party tools in the meantime...