REDCODE and Adobe After Effects

[studio.dmd]

Hi, I'm new here.

I've some doubts.

I understood that redcode is a very high quality codec, and that a 4K redcode (wavelet) is not inferior to an uncompressed 2K or hd for keying.

But we'll need to use other software, for example Adobe After Effects for compositing.

So, even if REDCODE is excellent, if AE can't natively use it, we'll be forced to re-compress it into another compatible codec.
At this point with a footage compressed twice, our keying will degrade a lot, isn't it?

I think there are some solutions to this problem.

1) capture the 4K uncompressed flow and work with it. But we'll need a workstation of tremendous performance and very expensive RAID systems.

2) capture the 4K uncompressed flow through a card that will compress it in realtime using an after effects compatible codec, and then always work with it. But, in this case:

a) Is there a 4K compatible capture hardware?
b) Is the new AJA IOHD capture device able to capture a 4K footage?
c) Is the new Apple ProRes 422 able to work with a 4K resolution, or is it limited to 1920 HD?
d) Is Adobe After Effects able to work with 4K?


Thank you!

 

[Rob Lohman]

I would do one of the following:

1) go through REDCINE and export an uncompressed image sequence (DPX, Tiff, Cineon etc.)

*or*

2) load the footage through the QuickTime codec into AE

We're still working on the details of quality & resolution out of the QT codec etc.

For your last questions:

a) not to my knowledge
b) no
c) no
d) probably (don't know for sure)

 

[ChristopherKenworthy]

It'll be interesting to see whether we can just drop After Effects from the workflow. I've used it for years, but so far have found the beta for AE CS3 a major disappointment, as it feels like the same old product, with no speed improvement at all. I'm looking to do my colour work in Color, and to do as much comp work in Motion 3 as possible. Until now, Motion has felt a bit like a toy compared to AE, but I'm hoping that will change.

 

[studio.dmd]

I understand...

I understand...

I would do one of the following:

1) go through REDCINE and export an uncompressed image sequence (DPX, Tiff, Cineon etc.)

*or*

2) load the footage through the QuickTime codec into AE

thank you for your fast answer.

So, in the first case we'll work with a 4K uncompressed-images sequence, isn't it?
If so we should anyway have a workstation and RAID system able to work with 4K uncompressed, so we'll have the best quality result importing directly the 4K uncompressed from RED ONE camera, bypassing the REDCODE compression, isn't it?

About your second option, I didn't understand which kind of footage we should load through the QuickTime codec into AE? I think not the REDCODE, but the uncompressed 4K, isn't it?

If so, since it seems that there aren't 4K capture cards, how is it possible to import the 4K uncompressed footage from the RED ONE ?

Thank you.

 

[Michele Gavazzeni]

yes 4K uncompressed-images sequence as .cin sequence perfect when used with Shake or AfterEffects

If so, since it seems that there aren't 4K capture cards, how is it possible to import the 4K uncompressed footage from the RED ONE

since RedOne records directly on hard disk you don't need to capture the footage... simply connect the Red hard disk on your Mac and copy the files.
Drag&Drop

 

[Nick Shaw]

I'm hoping it will be possible for the codec to present itself to After FX or Shake as 16-bit RGB at full quality 4k, so you can bypass REDCINE if you want to, the same as you will be able to for FCP. If you could also make by-reference Quicktimes that were set to lower rez and quality, so you could tell Shake to use those as proxys, rather than generating its own, that would be even better.

 

[studio.dmd]

I'm hoping it will be possible for the codec to present itself to After FX or Shake as 16-bit RGB at full quality 4k, so you can bypass REDCINE if you want to, the same as you will be able to for FCP. If you could also make by-reference Quicktimes that were set to lower rez and quality, so you could tell Shake to use those as proxys, rather than generating its own, that would be even better.

I don't understand... is it possible to deceive AE forcing it to use a 4K REDCODE compressed footage letting it to believe that it is an uncompressed 4K one?
If so, what about the data rate of this pseudo-uncompressed 4K? the 27,5 MB/sec. of REDCODE or the CRAZY MB/sec. of a real-uncompressed 4K?

 

[studio.dmd]

yes 4K uncompressed-images sequence as .cin sequence perfect when used with Shake or AfterEffects

since RedOne records directly on hard disk you don't need to capture the footage... simply connect the Red hard disk on your Mac and copy the files.
Drag&Drop

Ok, so the "only" things that we should use are:

1) the fast uncompressed output interface on the Red One camera;
2) the RED RAID camera-disk on which record the footage;
3) a very fast RAID system on which copy the files and work...

Did I understand?

 

[Nick Shaw]

RED-RAID doesn't exist yet, and no schedule is announced. Initially the only way to record from a RED will be REDCODE compressed. From greenscreen tests posted on CML (http://www.cinematography.net/Red/comp-matrix.html) REDCODE compressed material is fine for keying.

As for After Effects, it always works uncompressed internally. Any material from a compressed codec becomes uncompressed as soon as it is read into After Effects, and is stored uncompressed in the cache. You won't need a 4k uncompressed capable RAID, as After Effects does not need to (and cannot) read media from the drive in real-time.

 

[studio.dmd]

You won't need a 4k uncompressed capable RAID, as After Effects does not need to (and cannot) read media from the drive in real-time

Sorry... :watsup: I'm not the video engineer here... please understand me...

As for After Effects, it always works uncompressed internally. Any material from a compressed codec becomes uncompressed as soon as it is read into After Effects, and is stored uncompressed in the cache...

Sorry, but since we are working in HDV with FCP here, we haven't experience in higher resolutions and codecs. Once it is uncompressed in the cache while working on it, it will remain as uncompressed on the hard disks, isn't it?

And how is it possible that After Effects will read this codec? are you talking about a REDCODE ability to present itself as an RGB full quality 4K?

 

[casey warren]

It'll be interesting to see whether we can just drop After Effects from the workflow. I've used it for years, but so far have found the beta for AE CS3 a major disappointment, as it feels like the same old product, with no speed improvement at all. I'm looking to do my colour work in Color, and to do as much comp work in Motion 3 as possible. Until now, Motion has felt a bit like a toy compared to AE, but I'm hoping that will change.

Yeah, beta AE CS3....seemed really exciting on paper, but did not prove to be anything like I had hoped for. I am to hoping that Apple's Motion 3 has stepped it up a couple notches. The new 3D workflow seems promising.

However, AE is still a very reasonably priced program and has a lot of functionality in all areas of filmmaking/motion graphics.

 

[Nick Shaw]

Once it is uncompressed in the cache while working on it, it will remain as uncompressed on the hard disks, isn't it?

That is correct

And how is it possible that After Effects will read this codec? are you talking about a REDCODE ability to present itself as an RGB full quality 4K?

After FX will read material from any Quicktime codec which is installed on the machine, as REDCODE will be. As for REDCODE presenting itself as full quality 4k RGB, that's what I'm hoping for. As Rob said earlier, whether that will be the case is yet to be decided. If it is not, you will need to run the REDCODE media through REDCINE to convert it to a (preferably) uncompressed 4k format that After FX can read

 

[studio.dmd]

Ok, I understand.
Thank you!

 

[Stephen Gentle]

So, you would:

1. Shoot 4K Redcode to RED-DRIVE
2. Either
a) Export uncompressed image sequence from REDCINE, Or
b) Import the REDCODE footage directly with the Quicktime plugin
3. Composite, colour correct etc.

Right? That makes the most sense to me (unless you want 120fps @ 2K)

 

[studio.dmd]

Ok, it's clear, but, only a thing:

It seems that I didn't understand this:

...Or
b) Import the REDCODE footage directly with the Quicktime plugin

What is this plugin?

 

[Bachman]

Yeah, Im pretty sure you can bring in almost any size format into AE so long as it's wrapped in the right codec. The issue will be dealing with the shear demands of working with 4k uncompressed squences. Hmm brings back memories of rendering on my 486 with 16mb

 

[Rob Lohman]

REDCODE RAW is a QuickTime codec. So you can load that straight into any QT enabled application. We're still looking at quality & resolutions supported (ie testing) etc.

Otherwise you'll want to load an image sequence outputted by REDCINE indeed. And yes, you will need a speedy RAID array if you want to work with such an image sequence at any speed. That's sort of the game at 4K (and perhaps 2K).

 

[studio.dmd]

Ok, thank you all.