Redcine-x Transcodes to Prores 4444 look WASHED OUT

[Gunleik Groven]

yup.

I am looking at Jims images...

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Here there are my examples:

Detail from REDCINE-X 221 with player and image control parameters,...also shot on R1 with AF Nikkor 80-200mm f/2.8 D, manual ED zoom, no filters.

Look like it's appropriate but really not 100%: Color corrected and exported from REDCINE-X-221 @ Apple ProRes 4444 1K resized, Depth: Millions of color, Gamma Correction: None.

It looks washed: Color corrected and exported from REDCINE-X-221 @ H264 1K resized, muli-pass, best compression.

 

[Johnny Friday]

I think there is some talking at cross purposes going on here. I think Mike is saying that the images in his example match (which they appear to do to me) and others appear to think he is saying that Jim's images match (which clearly they do not).

I think to share images on this web....as small as the size limits are...will make it difficult to see those details that each of us sees. But the fact remains that there are differences and if we cannot get to Z from A without some hacking around, then clearly some effort should be put to fix this problem. I don't see how it can be a QT problem since it was not an issue prior to the new color science. That said, i know everyone here has a vested interest in seeing that we can easily go from RCX to any codec and expect with accuracy to get what we see in RCX depicted in Prores or other codecs.


EDIT: i see Sanjin's images weighed in now...and there CLEARLY is a difference with those images.

 

[Johnny Friday]

John, trying to help but without getting the info I asked for before or screenshots, you're not being very constructive.

As for magic that works for me all the time:
OSX 10.6.2
QT Player 7.6.3 (FCP compatibility on)
RCX 221
Prores 444 export with gamma correction set to none

screenshot:
View attachment 7151
bigger:
View attachment 7150

Mike...sorry if i came across as gruff. I've been at this for 3 days last month and was very dissatisfied with coming up empty handed and no solution. I'd have to go back into some clips and make pics again to show what i am seeing. But did not want to put the time again as i've wasted so much already and i think everyone agrees there is a clear difference. Much depends on how much contrast you have in the image. Much of my u/w footage EXAGERATES this effect so it's not a slight shift in the colors for me.

I think Sanjin's images sum up the problem perfectly. if required and it would help to get a fix, i'd go back and do the same and post images. But RED has posted here a few times....Deanan and they seem to think it's a QT problem. So if that's the case, how can we then proceed from RCX to a proper rendition of a prores 4444 ? what is the workaround? Or is a fix coming? Basically i can't shoot and send prores files like this to clients nor do i have the time to continually work the images to get the proper colors via many workarounds...I'd say im waiting for RED and Apple to come up with a solution. But cant wait a year.

***that is if it in fact is a QT issue. But for the moment i have a hard time swallowing that it is as I've had only problems since new color science was instituted.....AND I LOVE the new color science by the way....and FLUT---but want it all to work and properly transcode what I see on RCX and R3d's to Prores. The washout effect when transcoding is a KILLER for shooters in the field sending back Prores for edit for natural history documentaries where budgets are slim and coloring and rough editing are often left to the shooter in the field.---the only exception is if you work for the BBC and budgets are of not much concern for color/editing. But that's the only time that comes into play.

 

[Dave Dessel]

The Washed Out Club

The Washed Out Club

I too am a member of the Washed-Out-Club. I took some footage shot with build 20 and rendered it out with the old Red Cine to ProRes - no issues at all.

Then I took the same file inside RedCine-X, rendered to ProRes and got the washed out result.

I've been using Apple Color with the latest beta plug-in, referencing scopes and waveforms and the results are great. This is fine for in-house projects, but delivering ProRes directly to a client after a shoot is not easy.

No disrespect meant to folks at Red as I am sure this will be solved.

-DD

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I don't know anyone who DOES NOT have this problem with X221. I'm sure RED is working on it, it's a beta, after all...

 

[Johnny Friday]

I don't know anyone who DOES NOT have this problem with X221. I'm sure RED is working on it, it's a beta, after all...

Jeff, if you look at earlier posts from Deanan. RED claims it is an Apple QT issue, but many of us don't think it is.....so we need to keep the pipeline going to RED as it certainly does not appear to be a QT issue and we all hope RED will put some effort into this as it is part of many of our workflows. It is a pure waste of time to grade on RCX if you are transcoding to Prores or (as i hear) even other codecs using new color science, FLUT etc....

 

[David Battistella]

I don't know anyone who DOES NOT have this problem with X221. I'm sure RED is working on it, it's a beta, after all...

Jeff, if you look at earlier posts from Deanan. RED claims it is an Apple QT issue, but many of us don't think it is.....so we need to keep the pipeline going to RED as it certainly does not appear to be a QT issue and we all hope RED will put some effort into this as it is part of many of our workflows. It is a pure waste of time to grade on RCX if you are transcoding to Prores or (as i hear) even other codecs using new color science, FLUT etc....

It's a QT issue in the sense that you may hand off certain gamma values to a codec, but that is not what gets rendered. If there is no documentation or methodology to how to feed certain codecs how can RED go through each codec and figure out the gamma and color issues?

Also, to further complicate matters QT will set the gamma by itself depending on what application is wanting to play back the file.

This is the stressor because I do not believe that this is high on the Apple "todo" list and probably less so lately.

David

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Jeff, if you look at earlier posts from Deanan. RED claims it is an Apple QT issue, but many of us don't think it is.....so we need to keep the pipeline going to RED as it certainly does not appear to be a QT issue and we all hope RED will put some effort into this as it is part of many of our workflows. It is a pure waste of time to grade on RCX if you are transcoding to Prores or (as i hear) even other codecs using new color science, FLUT etc....

It is a QT issue as far as I can tell too, but it seems that X221 is giving different results going to QT than the previous build 194 or whatever I was using before and that wasn't right either. That said, it's not affecting me or my workflow. I know what I'm going to get and work accordingly. I don't do much for color correction work within RCX anyway. Lateley, my workflow is R3D in, transcode to ProRes 4x4 @ 4K and I online with 4K files. Yes, really, works pretty good for most of my projects that are rather short anyway.

I haven't installed the new update to CS5 for "more layers" or whatever it's supposed to give and it seems there's an updated plugin about to be released for RED support, but I haven't really used CS5 for any real project just yet. Maybe soon here. Everything I have in the works was already in progress under FCS when I received my CS5 anyway...

 

[Kaku Ito]

Hey guys, I will work on Media Composer 5, too, so let you know how that goes.

 

[Chris Parker]

this is probably a dumb question, but have you tried rendering out the same look from RocketCine-X? say build 1740? or 1720? are the results the exact same?

 

[jimhare]

Good news everybody! The new RedCine X build 246 finally matches when it transcodes to ProRes4444!

Looks the same in QT as it does in the RCX, and looks the same in FCP!

Yep, no more washed out QT files, it's like a 98% match, which is more than close enough for me!

Great day!

QT Pro 7.6.6
RCX 246
Red Rocket

 

[Johnny Friday]

Good news everybody! The new RedCine X build 246 finally matches when it transcodes to ProRes4444!

Looks the same in QT as it does in the RCX, and looks the same in FCP!

Yep, no more washed out QT files, it's like a 98% match, which is more than close enough for me!

Great day!

QT Pro 7.6.6
RCX 246
Red Rocket

GREAT NEWS!! Going now to look for the download. AND, glad that we all stuck this out till the end and informed RED of this problem as we now have a solution...i hope.

 

[Johnny Friday]

Jim,
where is the download? can't find it on red support. Looking through reduser now.

 

[David Battistella]

this is probably a dumb question, but have you tried rendering out the same look from RocketCine-X? say build 1740? or 1720? are the results the exact same?

Chris,

Many of these issues occur in Rocketcine -X as well depending on which codec you are rendering to. You or Jesse can do some tests with DVCPRO HD and see the problem.

Daivd

 

[Johnny Friday]

Good news everybody! The new RedCine X build 246 finally matches when it transcodes to ProRes4444!

Looks the same in QT as it does in the RCX, and looks the same in FCP!

Yep, no more washed out QT files, it's like a 98% match, which is more than close enough for me!

Great day!

QT Pro 7.6.6
RCX 246
Red Rocket

Can't find any links or any information to a REDCINE-X build 246 anywhere on REDUSER. ????

 

[Uli Plank]

Get used to Crucial Ordnance:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=610777#post610777

 

[Johnny Friday]

Get used to Crucial Ordnance:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=610777#post610777

Does anyone know if the new build 246 requires a new QT codec manual upgrade? or will this new build 246 replace the older (Beta 4.1) with a new version?

 

[Kaku Ito]

REDLINE is a command line and doesn't include the QT codec.

My understanding is that QT codec is for translating R3D within QT to display R3D via proxies with QT based apps like QuickTime player and FCP (when they playback R3D with proxies in realtime).

The REDLINE access the command line to render R3D.

So long story short, I don't think REDLINE build 246 does not replace the Beta 4.1 QT codec.

 

[Johnny Friday]

REDLINE is a command line and doesn't include the QT codec.

My understanding is that QT codec is for translating R3D within QT to display R3D via proxies with QT based apps like QuickTime player and FCP (when they playback R3D with proxies in realtime).

The REDLINE access the command line to render R3D.

So long story short, I don't think REDLINE build 246 does not replace the Beta 4.1 QT codec.

Kaku,
i was referring to Redcine-x 246 build---if we had to install a new QT codec--like with Redcine-x 221 or whatever the last build was.....i was not actually referring to Redline.