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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

REDCINE-X Saturation ???

I still vote for what Deanan said. Everything in redcine-x is done in linear space. If you export the image to other format that means you are not working in linear space anymore. It's obvious that the adjustment and the result will be different. I would be curious if you can try the same thing where everything is done at linear space, same footage, same parameter but in Nuke instead.

Rivai
 
RivaiC said:
I still vote for what Deanan said. Everything in redcine-x is done in linear space. If you export the image to other format that means you are not working in linear space anymore. It's obvious that the adjustment and the result will be different. I would be curious if you can try the same thing where everything is done at linear space, same footage, same parameter but in Nuke instead.

Rivai
Click to expand...

That's one of the things we're looking at as doing it early vs later has a different impact and range. We'll be doing some deep R&D into it (Graeme really :) and we'll update here soon.
 
Rivai,

maybe you don't understand what I'm trying to do…
I'm just trying to share what I think is useful to get colorful images while getting rid of noise.
I hope I'll be able to learn something from Graeme's, Deanans', Jims', your, etc… answers.

A few years ago, back in 2008, I bought my wonderful RED One camera.
And I'm still amazed today to see how important improvements I can get with firmware upgrades, new tools like REDCINE-X and new Color Science.
At the same time I try to find other ways to bring more improvement to my footage.
And I think maybe leaving saturation for post REDCINE-X is a good way to deal with colors and noise.

I'll show you what I mean in the example below.
This is a scene I recorded in 2008 in a very dark bar. I didn't really know how to use my RED One best at the time.
As you can see, footage is very noisy and poster on the left (at the beginning of the movie) is burnt.
Today within REDCINE-X leaving saturation level to 1 first, and color saturation and noise dealing in Final Cut next, this is the result I get.
I don't know if you think it's a good way to go. I think it's useful for me. Thought it was worth sharing.



Click to download movie
 
Pierce Cook said:
Hey Rami,

Thanks for sharing all of this. Would you mind explaining a little more directly what you did to achieve the noise removal here?

Best,

P
Click to expand...

Of course !

First work within REDCINE-X with Color and Gamma Space set to REDcolor2 and REDlogFilm.
Adjust Curve and Color Balance if you need to but don't forget to leave Saturation level to 1.
Then export QT proxies.
Within FInal Cut (or whatever you work with) use Neat Image Noise Reduction plugin and add saturation as you like (saturate plugin or channel mixer plugin if you like to play with RGB channels).
Thing I like working that way is that I can always get back to REDCINE-X if I need to adjust Curve and re-export QT proxies instantly.

SETTINGS.jpg


The main point here is not to play with level saturation within REDCINE-X as Noise Reduction won't work as well as if you leave it to 1. Also colors look more "natural" to me that way.
 
Thanks Rami!

Question: Some other threads I've read suggest running Neat Video multiple times on lower settings, rather than one time with more intense settings. Have you experimented with multiple instances of the plugin, or always just the one?

In my fear that it will not immediately work with Final Cut X, I'm considering getting it for After Effects instead... thoughts, anyone?

P
 
Graeme Nattress said:
I'm going to do a bit of code tweaking.

Graeme
Click to expand...


Rami, it's awesome that you found this inconsistency. I'm looking forward to Grame's fix, since a linear operation should in theory be better than the photoshop sRGB adjustment.
 
Pierce,

I run Neat Video only one time with default settings.
Never did multiple times. I'll try but I seriously doubt it can help.
Also I guess render time must increase a lot.
 
When you do saturation in Photoshop, it has it's own issues too that I'd like to avoid. Perhaps there's no perfect way to do saturation, but I appreciate the feedback and experiments and I'll see what I can come up with.

Graeme
 
Thanks Rami for the explanation.

Graeme Nattress said:
When you do saturation in Photoshop, it has it's own issues too that I'd like to avoid. Perhaps there's no perfect way to do saturation, but I appreciate the feedback and experiments and I'll see what I can come up with.

Graeme
Click to expand...

Awesome Graeme.
 
Lightroom does it the same way as RCX but Photoshop doesn't because it's saturation isn't tied to 'developing' a raw image. As Graeme says, bot seem to have pluses and minuses but Graeme's looking at how to get the best from both methods.
 
Thanks Deanan - I'd forgotten the Lightroom experiment! I guess it must have been a busy day yesterday.

Graeme
 
Just wanted to thank Graeme, Deanan, Jim, Jarred, and others at RED... This thread is a perfect example of the unique relationship RED offers to it's customers. Direct communication and collaboration.

"Good on you!"
 
Casey Green said:
Just wanted to thank Graeme, Deanan, Jim, Jarred, and others at RED... This thread is a perfect example of the unique relationship RED offers to it's customers. Direct communication and collaboration.

"Good on you!"
Click to expand...

+1

This thread is being taken care of by people at RED I do fully respect.
It's is a great forum. I come here almost everyday and always learn something useful.
Jim has quite an amazing way of making this company work.
Can't think about another big company with such an open mind.
 
Christopher Probst said:
This thread is interesting to me... I'm currently in the process of trying to make sense of ALL of the different workflow scenarios, parameters, consequences and pitfalls for all of the various post tools and digital camera systems out there. I have had way too many instances on commercials and to a lesser degree on music videos where the post work is completely handled by agency or client and I have no input on the decisions made.

I would like to get as much understanding on what options are being used and try to come up with a few recommendations based on the parameters at hand... (such as, are they coloring on a system that can handle .r3d or will the be coloring off transcodes?) I fear one arbitrary misclick of a setting can drastically influence the quality of the colored outcome. And if I have no presence in the matter, anything goes.

As with all of my obsessions, if I delve in deep enough, then I feel I have something to offer up, but if I don't feel completely solid in my understanding, I'm screwed.

Here is where I'd love to sit down and talk with Graeme, Mike Most Michael Cioni and the link and get into the nitty and the gritty.

Great topic.
Click to expand...

Agreed excellent and useful topic! Thank you Rami!
 
Pierce Cook said:
Thanks Rami!

Question: Some other threads I've read suggest running Neat Video multiple times on lower settings, rather than one time with more intense settings. Have you experimented with multiple instances of the plugin, or always just the one?

In my fear that it will not immediately work with Final Cut X, I'm considering getting it for After Effects instead... thoughts, anyone?

P
Click to expand...

any links or sources to said discussion, or tests of your own? i've only ever run it once as well, but it's always been on footage that in my opinion would have still be viewable without it. i don't like capturing noisy footage particularly well...
 
I know this is an old ass post, but I just found it today, and it gave me a huge insight into processing r3d footage. I've been mucking around with it for months, some projects getting better results than others, but this should really be a tutorial. Great read, and a testament to how important a user community like this is!
 
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The best results I've found for a heavily saturated but still natural LOOk is with Resolve and a full primary and secondary color node separation. But that's more complicated than just sliding a saturation slider back and forth.
 
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