REDCINE to SCRATCH to Tape....

[MichaelP]

You do not want to create a Quicktime with 2:3 pulldown at 29.97 just to remove it again for a 23.976 SD project. The file stays stays native 23.976 as it is now when importing, it is just the metadata that needs to address it as though it did come from 29.97 and had the 2:3 pullldown removed. This is where MetaCheater comes in for creating the metadata before the import. It just needs to updated to reflect the relationships of 24 to 30. I will be finishing a whitepaper that has all of this in it soon, once I get all the information from the different workflows being attempted. Just a bit difficult when working with two beta test files and not having access to a camera.

The basic mapping is as follows:

24 30 pulldown
:00 :00 A
:01 :01 B
:02 :03 C
:03 :04 D
:04 :05 A
:05 :06 B
:06 :08 C
:07 :09 D
:08 :10 A
:09 :11 B
:10 :13 C
:11 :14 D
:12 :15 A
:13 :16 B
:14 :18 C
:15 :19 D
:16 :20 A
:17 :21 B
:18 :23 C
:19 :24 D
:20 :25 A
:21 :26 B
:22 :28 C
:23 :29 D


Michael

 

[MichaelP]

Just a bit of history - MetaCheater was originally developed by Jabez to allow the QT coming from VFX (WETA in NZ) based on the concept that we had discussed that Batch import of files (QT, sequential TIFF, etc.) can have metadata attached to them if an ALE was created beforehand into which the files get merged. During the import, the files inherit all the metadata from the file as well as having the ability to add more as thought it had gotten captured via tape. A ton of metadata can be tracked this way if any of the applications export the metadata in the first place. For an idea of what that can be, check on two whitepapers I have written on Metadata Logging and Tracking as well as ASC EDL support in Avid at: http://www.avid.com/resources/whitepapers/index.asp

Jabez has been great in extending the tool to work with RED to allow the same basic workflow. There are still some tweaks that need to be done, but it is getting close. A HUGE thanks to Jabez who is currently working on Lovely Bones for Peter Jackson.


Michael

 

[Jeff Brue]

aha,
Ok makes sense Michael so all we need to do to get a working TC 24 is map the end code into a 29.97 space. IE when a 29.97 project is selected instead of mapping the 23.976 end code we need to map the conversion as stated above. Tested it works. So Jabez I guess thats a feature request, in the meantime I'm going to script something of my own.

 

[MichaelP]

Avid is working on the XML to ALE conversion from REDCINE, so we will provide both SD and HD output with all the metadata provide when saving a REDCINE project as .xml. Over time, I would hope to get more metadata out of the process such as color, etc.

Michael

 

[Jeff Brue]

Thanks Michael,
Just got our automated avid transcode system working because of this.

 

[Jabez Olssen]

aha,
Ok makes sense Michael so all we need to do to get a working TC 24 is map the end code into a 29.97 space. IE when a 29.97 project is selected instead of mapping the 23.976 end code we need to map the conversion as stated above. Tested it works. So Jabez I guess thats a feature request, in the meantime I'm going to script something of my own.

If I find some time I'm happy to do this... but really we should all be cutting in HD with DNxHD36 anyway

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Avid is working on the XML to ALE conversion from REDCINE, so we will provide both SD and HD output with all the metadata provide when saving a REDCINE project as .xml. Over time, I would hope to get more metadata out of the process such as color, etc.

Michael

Michael -

Please help me in my crusade for color settings in REDCINE XLM - VERY important to my future pipeline(s) - whatever you can do to encourage the REDCINE team to get color settings in there is greatly appreciated - I think them may be getting tired of all my requests -:w00t:

 

[filip kovcin]

Avid is working on the XML to ALE conversion from REDCINE

Michael,

i'm just curious, do you know maybe is avid working ONLY on xml to ale conversion for REDCINE or also on ANY xml conversion to ale (say FCP)?

thank you,

filip

 

[M Most]

If I find some time I'm happy to do this... but really we should all be cutting in HD with DNxHD36 anyway

And if there were a way to see that on a client monitor without buying an Adrenaline HD, we might be.

 

[MichaelP]

Use a DVI out full screen. For craft editorial non critical monitoring purposes, it works fine.

 

[M Most]

Use a DVI out full screen. For craft editorial non critical monitoring purposes, it works fine.

True. And at least on MC, you can also use Full Screen playback mode on your main screen. But they're both workarounds, and Avid's resistance to third party hardware has really hurt during the transition to HD, particularly now that "HD offline" seems to be catching on. My post was really just an intentionally snarky comment on that ;-)

 

[Agustin Goya]

MetaCheater was originally developed by Jabez to allow the QT coming from VFX (WETA in NZ) based on the concept that we had discussed that Batch import of files (QT, sequential TIFF, etc.) can have metadata attached to them if an ALE was created beforehand into which the files get merged.Michael

Hi Michael!!! Good to see you here.
Are you saying that MetaCheater can work with Tiff or DPX file sequences also?
Is there any way to load file name metadata of proxy tiif sequences to be lately conformed in scratch using original DPX?
TIA, Agustin

 

[Jabez Olssen]

Hi Michael!!! Good to see you here.
Are you saying that MetaCheater can work with Tiff or DPX file sequences also?
Is there any way to load file name metadata of proxy tiif sequences to be lately conformed in scratch using original DPX?
TIA, Agustin

Nope, MetaCheater is just a utility for extracting MetaData from Quicktimes and creating an ALE of it.

 

[MichaelP]

Avid is developing MetaFuze which is a TIFF and DPX transcode to DNxHD with MXF for metadata. These are native to the Media Composer for editing. This is not to be confused with MetaCheater which as cogito says, is for QT.

Perhaps is the "meta" that causes the metaconfusion.

Michael

 

[Jeff Brue]

If I find some time I'm happy to do this... but really we should all be cutting in HD with DNxHD36 anyway

Agreed, but have fun telling that to the academy award winning editor that he spent all that time learning meridien and he has to go back and relearn what !? Its easier to just say yes I'll automate and handle it for this much money, then make them learn a new codec name.

Sadly its to true especially on the cutting edge of dcinema. My answer is to make it work for everyone, and then just set up the price structure to make it go DNxHD 36, because it is cheaper in the long run to go that route. Just in terms of fewer headaches.

 

[MichaelP]

An Academy Award winning editor usually does not even know what the name of the format or codec even is.... the assistants do. An Academy Award winning editor sees pictures, hears sounds, and tells a story.

Meridien or not makes no sense to the subject at hand. When Meridien was created, HD did not exist. HD is here now, and the editors love seeing better looking picture during editorial. Meridien is I/O - the interface and features that allow the telling of the story are still there and in some cases, enhanced as with the introduction of ScriptSync.

Michael

 

[Brenton]

An Academy Award winning editor usually does not even know what the name of the format or codec even is.... the assistants do. An Academy Award winning editor sees pictures, hears sounds, and tells a story.

I've gotta back MichaelP up here. We run upto 17 Avids at anyone time in & out of our building. On pretty much all of the jobs that get cut by the 'recognised' drama editors around town, the footage is all prepped by the assistants. Editor turns up in the morning, reviews the footage & edits.

I'd also hazard a guess to say that the majority of the drama editors are using less than 25% of the functionality of todays Avids. It's not about the tools, it's about the story.

The benefits of higher resolution 'offlines' are that any camera issues with focus and things that may need to be fixed in the conform are more readily apparent at the initial editing stage. (fxguide.com have an interesting podcast with the Strauss brothers about Alien vs Predator Requiem and they 'offlined' at 1080 (albeit in FCP) and they mentioned these benefits. http://www.fxguide.com/fxpodcast.html)

[warning: when I was a lad story follows]
When I was just a young editor I once had to 'operate' avid for a 'bigname' editor here in New Zealand, I sat at the avid, he sat up the back reading the paper and telling me (down to the frame) where the edits needed to happen. He certainly felt no need to understand what codec was being used, just that the cut from the shotA to shotB needed to be trimmed 4fr... it was an interesting experience, one that at the time I had no regard for. Ahh, the ignorance of youth :blush:

 

[Dylan Reeve]

When I was at Images I spent a while showing one of NZ's more respected editors how to do a picture-in-picture... In my experience they seldom know or care about much more than in and out points.

I've used Avid from version 7.something FilmComposers to MC Adrenaline - the basic workflow is seamless between versions...

 

[Jeff Brue]

Preaching to the choir...we started doing only HD editorial in Final Cut. I had to learn Avid to be able to get our Stwo system working with all the avid commercial houses. I'm a huge fan of DNxHD its made my life easier by far, but however much we might not like it there are a ton of Meridien systems in the LA market, and when an editorial rental house charges 50% more for something the assistant editor says they don't need, the line producer goes hmm here's an extra 5 thousand dollars.

Ah well I have my answer for those clients and I'll make that money back in conversion charges.

 

[MichaelP]

I think the need for HD offline will change the need from Meridian to Adrenaline in features. Cost savings alone in conform for screening offsets any difference in a weekly rental cost. Television is another matter, they seem fine with the SD offlline process for a variety of reasons.

Michael