redcine rendered hd clips are causing issues in fcp and color

[Brett]

Hey all, I hope someone can offer me a possible reason for these issues we are having with our project. First, our workflow consisted of transferring the redfiles into raw hd using redcine(gamma set to redcine by mistake). Reconforming the cut in after effects with these files, and outputting an uncompressed quicktime hd timeline as one large file(using rec 709). then taking that uncompressed hd file into fcp, cutting it up, and bringing it into color. Color correcting it, and returning it to fcp. I know, what a pain in the ass.

Now here is our issue... when we take the quicktime file into color and color correct it, and bring it back to fcp, there are inconsistencies in the waveform and vector scopes. The blacks that are at 0 in color are at 10 in fcp. Any ideas what could be happening?

here's a thread where someone had the same issue.

http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/223/9618#9618

 

[Jeremy Newmark]

Bret,

Quick question, why not skip all those first few steps and grade with the R3D's directly in Color? This workflow seems like a nightmare and is just asking for problems. There are many different possible workflows to achieve your end result here, I'm sure we can find one that works better for you.

I've never seen that issue when going from Color back to FCP. Do you have an external monitor or scopes? What versions of the software are you using and what is your Hardware setup?

 

[Gunleik Groven]

OK

1. You're seeing the dreaded FCP gammashift. Well documented here and elsewhere. You COULD be ok with FCS3/Snow Leopard. At least better off...

2. RAW-grading in color.... Depends on where you're going. Defenitely NOT there yet. And the lack of "new color science" is not the reason. Not even the third most important reason...

Cutting off (some kind of) proxies (cam- or prores) and conforming to DPXs with f.ex Monkey Extract for online, will give far better results, given that you the development properly (and you haven't already underexposed @ 3200k in Red Space, but then you're in trouble anyway...)

You could also use Crimson/RedCine for the conform, but that's becoming sort of dated and hassled, due to the limitations of RedCine....

I haven't tried doing it woth Clipfinder, but it's supposed to work.

BUT. For film-out, tricky exposure, high-end TV, DCP packages.... Stay away from RAW grading in Color.

DPX's work like a charm, though.

Unfortunately the levels in FCP and Color differs even over SDI under pre-leopard systems. An external scope won't help you much on this, if you plan to play out a master from FCP/Use compressor for delivery. You'll have to create custom LUT's that simulate the damage Compressor and FCP inflicts. The tricky part is that this is format-dependant. Prores is sorta most OK, cept from ProRes NOT being ok as an online format. AJA is very NOT OK and very bedly treated (as are other 10-bit RGB formats)

The leck of consistency is the bitch. So you'll have to nail a LUT for a specific workflow/format and stick to that, and develop new LUTs for new formats/workflows to make this sorta work...

Looks a lot more promising with FCS 3/Snow Leopard. But The RAW in color is still just a promise...

Cheers!

Gunleik

 

[David Battistella]

2. RAW-grading in color.... Depends on where you're going. Defenitely NOT there yet. And the lack of "new color science" is not the reason. Not even the third most important reason...

I'm surprised by this because I have completed about four projects using the Clipfinder, Conform method I detail in this thread and it really works beautifully with excellent results.

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=35308

I haven't tried doing it woth Clipfinder, but it's supposed to work.

BUT. For film-out, tricky exposure, high-end TV, DCP packages.... Stay away from RAW grading in Color.

I encourage you to run a small test with the details in the thread above. I am really curious why you are giving this advice and not suggesting what package to actually use as an alternative. The renders I am getting from APPLE COLOR RAW workflow are of excellent tonal, color and sharpness. If you are using Apple Color for a filmout then you really need to set up a proper LUT for the laser/film recorder you are going to use and run some tests.

Looks a lot more promising with FCS 3/Snow Leopard. But The RAW in color is still just a promise...

Cheers!

Gunleik

I can confirm it is better in OSXSL and that is what I have been using. Also, it is important to have a calibrated and tested system if you are attempting to send anything "out of house" for broadcast, fimout, etc. I think that we maybe assume that people are doing all of this with broadcast monitors on a calibrated system and the correct LUT's on while Color correcting and viewing through a broadcast monitor.

Not having that is like sound mixing on your computer speakers.

David

 

[Gunleik Groven]

I know the Clipfinder conform method, and show it to people on a frequent basis, when they don't have hardware/needs for DPX/uncompressed.

I have also been doing a lot of A/B with color vs DPX...
I found 1.5 promising, but then disappointing when pushed.
There are several reasons for this. The RED-room as a LUT, which gives hard cutoffs @ levels bellow 0 and above 100 that cannot be reclaimed in later rooms (like in the secondaries, which you can in float with DPXs), the quality of the debayer, the whole signalchain is basically not good enough, when working in RAW.

It is excellent for DPXs, though.

Also if you look at noise development through the grade, it's not very good.

But it IS a quick way to get some nice images for a lot of uses. What I say, is that it depends on what your deliveryformat is.

For DCP screenings, film-out or high-end TV, I would not recomend it.
It's very usefull for a lot of other scenarios. And I do NOT deny that...




Color RAW pre 1.5 was straight out unuseable.
Now it is useable with Snow Leopard in a lot of scenarios, but not all.

That is good.
But still not "the answer"


G


And, yes I know what a LUT does...

 

[Jeremy Newmark]

I have to agree with David here. Yes things are better in Snow Leopard and the FCP, Clipfinder, Color workflow works wonderfully well. It is true that the R3D Color workflow does not take advantage of the new Color science yet, but it can still produce some fantastic results. The DPX workflow works great as well. That's my point, there are a lot of different workflow options, it all depends on exactly what you need to do, what your resources are and what you are trying to accomplish. That's why I'm asking Brett for more info, because with the limited info that he's given us, I can only conclude that there is a much better workflow then the route he is going.

 

[Brett]

ugh

ugh

hey guys, thank you so much for the replies.

Regarding the workflow...
I'm embarrassed to say, but basically we started the project before there was a good workflow in place for what we were doing. It was cut on an avid xpress at my editors home studio. (he's a friend and was doing it for free) using sd h264 files from redcine. When he finished, I rebuilt my computer to do the retransfer and reconform in after effects. Now My dp is doing the color pass on his fcp system (again as a friend for free) without a monitor using the scopes as the primary tool. I know this is a shitty way to finish a project, but I've run out of money and connections. It's a shame too because the film has turned out exceptionally well, but the project must get completed, and I'm not getting an influx of money any time soon.

Regarding the issue...

Anyone know a colorist in LA with his own system that would spend a few hours working on my project for a few hundred bucks? OK, OK, now that the laughter has died down...

I feel like i'm swimming upstream, I'm not sure what to do here. I'm guessing the best option for this would be to do an overcut with the original r3d files in premiere and try to do a do a color pass in after effects, or premiere, or back to color and fcp. At least then I won't have to contend with the gamma shift. My delivery format is probably going to be hdcam. Any other thoughts? I'd love to hear them.


*** edit***

ok, Thanks to you guys, I have made the decision to do an overcut with premiere and the r3d files and output a dpx for my dp to cc in color. It will be a shit load of work, but will get me to the place I need to go. Any words of wisdom for the process would be greatly appreciated. Thank you all for the help.

 

[David Battistella]

I know the Clipfinder conform method, and show it to people on a frequent basis, when they don't have hardware/needs for DPX/uncompressed.

I have also been doing a lot of A/B with color vs DPX...
I found 1.5 promising, but then disappointing when pushed.
There are several reasons for this. The RED-room as a LUT, which gives hard cutoffs @ levels bellow 0 and above 100 that cannot be reclaimed in later rooms (like in the secondaries, which you can in float with DPXs), the quality of the debayer, the whole signalchain is basically not good enough, when working in RAW.

It is excellent for DPXs, though.

Also if you look at noise development through the grade, it's not very good.

But it IS a quick way to get some nice images for a lot of uses. What I say, is that it depends on what your deliveryformat is.

For DCP screenings, film-out or high-end TV, I would not recomend it.
It's very usefull for a lot of other scenarios. And I do NOT deny that...




Color RAW pre 1.5 was straight out unuseable.
Now it is useable with Snow Leopard in a lot of scenarios, but not all.

That is good.
But still not "the answer"


G


And, yes I know what a LUT does...

Thanks for the detailed answer G. I don't think I suggested that you do not know what a LUT is. I agree that when going to a film out it VERY unlikely that the final grade will be happening in APPLE Color for a very simple reason. Anyone with a film recorder is not going to be fronting their workflow with Apple Color.

I agree with you that Apple Color is not primetime for film outs but it is a very acceptable grader for many RED users. I've done some filmouts with Baselight from 2K and 4K material.

Most people who shoot RED are asking about filmouts, but I do not really think that many filmouts are being done. and I think that a good many outputs are not being done correctly.

Baselight now can read R3D, so the need for DPX files is waning and will most likely be an option for a shorter period of time as more companies implement direct R3D support.

All this stuff is still so new. But it's great.

David