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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Redcine & Red Alert...which ones better?

T

Tom Tomlinson

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I've been playing with both. I think the similar features make them confusing to use. To me its all about prepping the raw files properly. So they advertise RedCine for "1st light use" yet you don't have the same color increment adjustments like you do in RedAlert. And you don't have the gamma correction lut options.

But obviously, I like the fast access to all the clips in RedCine.

Red Alert's RedLog seems like the proper log over 685.
Whats the point of 685? to mimic a kodak response? Shouln't I just maximize the range as much as possible before clipping?

Any suggestions would be appreciated.
thanks
 
celboy said:
So they advertise RedCine for "1st light use" yet you don't have the same color increment adjustments like you do in RedAlert
Click to expand...

Like?

celboy said:
And you don't have the gamma correction lut options.
Click to expand...

Can you elaborate?

celboy said:
Red Alert's RedLog seems like the proper log over 685.
Whats the point of 685? to mimic a kodak response? Shouln't I just maximize the range as much as possible before clipping?
Click to expand...

PDLog's are print density emulations with different black & white points. RedLog is a 10-bit log output that crams as much of the 12-bit information in there as it can.
 
REDCine gamma options are in the project settings. You can choose from the same options you have in RedAlert, and to get linear light, use a custom gamma of 1.0.

The code behind the scenes for the the generation of luts and matrix is the very same for both apps, so if you've spotted a discrepancy, then please give us enough information to fix it!

Graeme
 
My biggest problem with the footage right now is that it never looks the same in two different places. I play the quicktime "reference" clips directly and they look one way, I open the file in RED Alert! and it looks radically different, import it into Final Cut Pro and it's different yet again... I haven't found a point to making adjustments in RED Alert! if I can't view those changes anywhere else. I know it's probably a gamma/color space/codec issue, but I have been working with the clips for over a month now and still can't find any consistency. Any tips on getting everything on the same page?

FWIW, I've enabled the "Final Cut Studio Color Compatibility" option in Quicktime and it looks better - but not matched.
 
Red Alert & REDCINE should really look the same. With QuickTime a lot of stuff is out of our hands (like the gamma shift you can get with QT). Obviously we're working on improvements daily, but with the QuickTime stuff it's hard.
 
What about ISO Settings, DRX Settings, and the Black and White points. These are all in Red Alert, but how do you make the same adjustments in Red Cine?

Thanks
 
Rob Lohman said:
Red Alert & REDCINE should really look the same. With QuickTime a lot of stuff is out of our hands (like the gamma shift you can get with QT). Obviously we're working on improvements daily, but with the QuickTime stuff it's hard.
Click to expand...
I can't get REDCine to work, but the REDAlert! stuff looks monumentally different than Quicktime. And I know a large part of that is out of your hands, but Quicktime is what the end user is going to use to view the footage we create. So in essence, it doesn't matter what the footage looks like in REDAlert! because no one is going to be viewing the end product there. And as such, it becomes useless as a one-light grader, too. :-(
 
Häakon said:
My biggest problem with the footage right now is that it never looks the same in two different places. I play the quicktime "reference" clips directly and they look one way, I open the file in RED Alert! and it looks radically different, import it into Final Cut Pro and it's different yet again... I haven't found a point to making adjustments in RED Alert! if I can't view those changes anywhere else. I know it's probably a gamma/color space/codec issue, but I have been working with the clips for over a month now and still can't find any consistency. Any tips on getting everything on the same page?

FWIW, I've enabled the "Final Cut Studio Color Compatibility" option in Quicktime and it looks better - but not matched.
Click to expand...

Welcome to the miasma that is Quicktime. It blows my mind how completely messed up QT is, and that Apple is dragging their feet on fixing such a core format. Kind of like selling workstations with Nvidia cards that are crippled by inadequate drivers.

But re. color, Redcode, & QT: it's a manageable problem.

What I do is limit each step - RedAlert for nothing other than generating wrappers, FCP for nothing other than offline, and somewhere to do a conform/finish that is the actual only step where color will be critical.

That way you can ignore the QT color shifts in the other stages, and only be concerned with color in the very last stage prior to delivery.

regards,

jt
 
It just seems a little silly that in an age of 4K cameras, we can't get black to be black and white to be white.

It's not RED's fault, but it sure makes this process a pain in the ass.
 
Keep in mind that all features that are in RED ALERT are not currently supported by the QuickTime codec. Like the curves, different color / gamma spaces or DRX settings.

DRX by the way is in REDCINE, it's called highlight. REDCINE will very soon have ISO settings like RED ALERT
 
Rob Lohman said:
Keep in mind that all features that are in RED ALERT are not currently supported by the QuickTime codec. Like the curves, different color / gamma spaces or DRX settings.
Click to expand...
I wasn't aware of that, but then what's the point of applying a curve and choosing "make quicktimes" if QuickTime can't read it?
 
the point is that you have those controls for DPX/TIFF output. I guess we should warn you if you changed those options and then create a QuickTime file. We'll discuss some options internally.

Sorry for the confusion,
 
Odd... I thought that was just QuickTime. Can you email me a log file of a session where that happens? (pm me if you don't have my mail)

Thanks,
 
Rob Lohman said:
the point is that you have those controls for DPX/TIFF output. I guess we should warn you if you changed those options and then create a QuickTime file. We'll discuss some options internally.

Sorry for the confusion,
Click to expand...
Hi Rob,

No problem. I'm just a little confused... say I raise the gain of the red channel to extreme (very noticable) levels in REDAlert! so that the footage is heavily tinted. If I then choose to "make Quicktimes," the resulting "reference" movies are also extremely red-tinted. The same holds true for curve, white balance, and ISO adjustments. This is, of course, a good thing; the problem is that while the Quicktimes are "adjusted," they do not precisely match the REDAlert preview. This makes even basic grading essentially useless, which is frustrating since this is REDAlert's primary function.
 
That's a nice thought, except Quicktime is what 99% of the end users are using right now to view footage. I don't think you can just shrug it off.
 
Thank you Rob & Graeme. Upon further review, I see what I passed over. I guess I'm just thrown a bit with the different layouts of each application.

Sometimes it seems you have to stumble upon things to see all the features.

Do you think there will be a more traditional step by step user guide to these 2 applications then the brief overview thats in the red camera pdf.
 
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