RedCine -> CS3, testing results

[Antoine Baumann]

Laboprod, the CineForm decoders for both PC and Mac ("Neo Player") are free for download on the CineForm website - they never expire. You only need a paid license to encode. So if you purchase a CineForm product that you use for for post, you can share resulting files with anybody without charge.

Hi David,

I understand this, but you need CineForm Prospect to be able do edit the codec within Premiere pro, I mean if you don't have it, it won't play back in real time, isn't it?

Thanks,
antoine.

PS: please call me antoine

 

[Kevin Halverson]

Kevin, on my testing with REDCINE, output to Avid DNxHD was not working
see my post here:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5909&page=9

have a try and let us know.

Initially, I too thought that DNxHD wasn't working (at least creating usable output), but I discovered that RedCine was working fine, it is the QT player that wasn't. Here is what I tried.

Exported a short sequence from RedCine to a DNxHD QT file (about 48 frames). Tried to play it back on my PC with QT player (v 7.3) and got nothing but a mosaic of uncorrelated pixels. Exported two other files, same results.

I then sent one of the files to a Mac, and it played fine.

As a final test step, I created a new project in PPro (CS3) and imported all three files, each one was fine with PPro.

It appears that the QT player was the issue and I was making an assumption based upon its behavior, that turned out to be incorrect.

Kevin

 

[David Newman]

Hi David,

I understand this, but you need CineForm Prospect to be able do edit the codec within Premiere pro, I mean if you don't have it, it won't play back in real time, isn't it?

Thanks,
antoine.

PS: please call me antoine

Hi Antoine,

Other David here. No, that is not correct. When you use our free decoder, CineForm plays just like every other third party codec in Premiere. Premiere will mark any codec as red if it does have an "edit mode", which you get with Prospect. Red doesn't mean it won't play, only that the codec is not matching the default codec for the project. FCP same the behavor if you put a DNxHD clip in a ProRES timeline (although much more restictive in FCP.) Of course Prospect's edit mode also accelerates playback, so there are performance gains to owning products, but that is unnecessary for sharing CineForm media. CineForm material without Prospect behaves the same as Avid DNxHD, MJPEG, etc. It will play fine.

 

[Kevin Halverson]

Hello David's,

I am wondering if you could comment on the additional processing burden (if any) that CineForm adds to the creation of QT files from RedCine? I would like to know an exact frame rate (in terms of number of frames processed per unit time) for CineForm output versus a standard QT codec (perhaps uncompressed). The problem I see is trying to compare various different codecs installed on different hardware platforms. The differences in hardware obscures any differences that the output codec choice might contribute.

Thanks for any hard data that you can share,

Kevin Halverson

 

[David Newman]

On my PCs uncompressed is slower, but that is due to disk bandwidth. The CineForm codec is very fast. We capture 2K dual link in real-time on a good Quad core, i.e. 30 fps (we can do close to 40fps). 4K 444, would be about a quarter of that, say 10 fps on the same PC. However, the Quicktime implementation is not as threaded as our DirectShow version, so you might only see 4fps encoding speeds at 4K. However this is still significantly faster than the 4K decoding and demosaic speed of the R3D file. If RedCine threaded the QuickTime implementation such that the Quicktime processing and the R3D decoding overlapped, it wouldn't mater if we where threading. An idea for Rob, if it is not already on the list. Likely CineForm encodes will only add 10-20% to you development time (machine dependent) as compared with no output at all (most output will add that or more time.)

 

[Kevin Halverson]

Thank you David for the comments.

As you point out, different hardware is going to have different speed with different output formats. On one of my machines, I find that uncompressed is fractionally faster than say, DNxHD as it has a fast disc channel. I agree, decompress, demosaic and colorometry are likely the bulk of the work being done, but certainly there must be some burden imposed by the output codec processing requirements and disc channel.

My current interest is strictly centered around testing for online quality output (1080p) from Red 4k source material via RedCine. I want to establish what frame rates processed can be expected via RedCine to various codecs. For my proposes, I need hard numbers in terms of frames/unit time for specific input/output formats. Defining the number of work nodes needed to get online quality material to editorial on an episodic with a fast turn is my underlying motivation for this testing.

I would perform the CineForm tests myself, but for some reason, I get an argument that the evaluation period has expired when I attempt to install it on the machine that I am testing with. I have been trying to use one machine for all testing so as to eliminate at least one variable from the process. I think the expiration argument may stem from an install, uninstall that I did when the beta was first released.

I maybe able to locate the registry entry that controls this and clear it myself when I can get to another machine that has an all solid-state boot drive. On that machine I can take a snapshot of the registry (actually, every file on the boot drive can be compared down to the bit level with this machine) both before and after the beta installation and then do a direct comparison. We use this machine for evaluation testing as no mater what is done to it during any software installation, it always returns to exactly the same configuration when restarted as the entire boot drive is just copied over from non-volatile storage to the solid-state 'c-drive'.

Thanks again for the comments,

Kevin Halverson

 

[Mike McCarthy]

Thank you David for the comments.

As you point out, different hardware is going to have different speed with different output formats. On one of my machines, I find that uncompressed is fractionally faster than say, DNxHD as it has a fast disc channel. I agree, decompress, demosaic and colorometry are likely the bulk of the work being done, but certainly there must be some burden imposed by the output codec processing requirements and disc channel.

My current interest is strictly centered around testing for online quality output (1080p) from Red 4k source material via RedCine. I want to establish what frame rates processed can be expected via RedCine to various codecs. For my proposes, I need hard numbers in terms of frames/unit time for specific input/output formats. Defining the number of work nodes needed to get online quality material to editorial on an episodic with a fast turn is my underlying motivation for this testing.

The hardware differences will have too much of an effect to give you an FPS number. I am getting double what most people are reporting, likely due to my Overclocked 8800GTX GPU. Any fps benchmarks from my system would be difficult to match without an overclocked card, which is unrealistic for a render farm for larger scale application. Probably best to do the tests yourself. For activation issues, try installing Neo if you have been using Prospect, or vice versa. Cineform is usually pretty flexible in that regard. It should be able to get you the numbers you are looking for, especially since you are only trying to encode at 1080p. By advised that Cineform currently defaults 1080p encodes from Redcine to 422 colorspace, I believe. I am not sure how to alter that setting.

 

[David Newman]

By advised that Cineform currently defaults 1080p encodes from Redcine to 422 colorspace, I believe. I am not sure how to alter that setting.

RedCine is currently missing the Quicktime control panel for all codecs, so we had to make some defaults. 1920x1080 is 4:2:2, anything larger defaults to 4:4:4. Once we get the QT options control panel in RedCine, then you use will be able to require 1080p 4:4:4 or 4K 4:2:2 (which is supprising efficient and fast.)

 

[Kevin Halverson]

Thanks McCarthyTech,

How much are you pushing the clock on your 8800 GTX? I just installed a8600 GTX in the machine that I am using for testing having come from all ATI graphics cards in the past.

I definitely want 1080 4:4:4 color space, so I think I should hold off on my testing until a control panel is made available.

Does anyone know if it is possible to force the QT defaults through a command line level interface?

Thanks again,

Kevin

 

[Stacey Spears]

Does anyone know if it is possible to force the QT defaults through a command line level interface?

Another option, aka hack, is to use a regkey to force 4:4:4 vs. 4:2:2.

 

[Mike McCarthy]

Thanks McCarthyTech,

How much are you pushing the clock on your 8800 GTX? I just installed a8600 GTX in the machine that I am using for testing having come from all ATI graphics cards in the past.

I definitely want 1080 4:4:4 color space, so I think I should hold off on my testing until a control panel is made available.

Does anyone know if it is possible to force the QT defaults through a command line level interface?

Thanks again,

Kevin

I am not doing anything crazy with it, 675Mhz instead of 600. I bought it that way, and am not even really thrilled about it since it has a tendency to overheat. The drivers run the fan really slow by default. If I manually increase it, it runs fine. The fact that it is overclocked is not increasing my numbers as much as the fact that it is just a really powerful card.

 

[Joe Carney]

Hi Antoine,

Other David here. No, that is not correct. When you use our free decoder, CineForm plays just like every other third party codec in Premiere. Premiere will mark any codec as red if it does have an "edit mode", which you get with Prospect. Red doesn't mean it won't play, only that the codec is not matching the default codec for the project.

David, thanks for posting, I need to clear up a minor misunderstanding.
I'm looking at Magic Bullet Editor and Colorista for AE on Windows, do they work with both Neo and Prospect?

Joe.

 

[David Newman]

David, thanks for posting, I need to clear up a minor misunderstanding.
I'm looking at Magic Bullet Editor and Colorista for AE on Windows, do they work with both Neo and Prospect?

Joe.

Yes. Although the Red Giant products aren't accelerated by Prospect's playback engine.

 

[Kevin Halverson]

I am not doing anything crazy with it, 675Mhz instead of 600. I bought it that way, and am not even really thrilled about it since it has a tendency to overheat. The drivers run the fan really slow by default. If I manually increase it, it runs fine. The fact that it is overclocked is not increasing my numbers as much as the fact that it is just a really powerful card.

Thanks for the clarification on the over clock. Your correct, this amount of overclock should only yield around 12% additional throughput. I almost went the 8800 GTX route, but the two slot configuration didn't work well in the case I wanted to test in, so I went 8600 GTX instead. Do you happen to know if there is that much difference between these two video cards?

Thanks again,

Kevin

 

[number6]

Thanks for the clarification on the over clock. Your correct, this amount of overclock should only yield around 12% additional throughput. I almost went the 8800 GTX route, but the two slot configuration didn't work well in the case I wanted to test in, so I went 8600 GTX instead. Do you happen to know if there is that much difference between these two video cards?

Thanks again,

Kevin

Great graptic card overclocking article on THG at this link. http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/11/23/overclock_your_graphics_card_in_five_minutes/

 

[Troy Smith]

I'm wondering if anyone can help me out with this question, I'm trying to decide between fcp or pp with cineform, I prefer to stay with pp, but I see people saying that fcp is the best approach for speed etc, my question is, the qt ref files that are used in fcp that make it so no rendering out of redcine is required like with cineform, aren't those qt ref files lower quality then fully rendered out clips from redcine, I read something from a red team member that there maybe aliasing etc, but that will change in the future, if that's the case wouldnt' one have to go the whole rendering route anyway for the online edit? If that's the case I'd stick to pp and cineform and just render out from redcine to start with, or am I missing something here?
Any info on this appreciated.

Thanks
Stricko

 

[John Tissavary]

For the last step there's no avoiding rendering, but to just do an on-line or offline edit on the Mac side takes less time & less steps - this works for PP or FCP on the mac side.

The slowdown on PC is that there is no QT redcode component for XP/Vista yet, so one must render to a different format.

One way to speed things up a bit would be to render low res proxies out of Redcine for offlining, then create a 'pull list' of clips you want to render out at high rez for the final 'online' version. Better than that, generate an EDL out of PP, and do a proper conform in Scratch.


cheers,

john t.

 

[Mike McCarthy]

Thanks for the clarification on the over clock. Your correct, this amount of overclock should only yield around 12% additional throughput. I almost went the 8800 GTX route, but the two slot configuration didn't work well in the case I wanted to test in, so I went 8600 GTX instead. Do you happen to know if there is that much difference between these two video cards?

Thanks again,

Kevin

I haven't seen much info on the 8600GTX, but my 8800GTX if 4x faster than the 8600GTS in many tasks at 1080 resolution. I would estimate my card to be at least twice as powerful as any 8600 varient. The single slot 8800GT is the way to go if you can find one.