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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RedCam vs. Hv20? Compareable at 1-2K?

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GP1

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A few weeks ago i bought the Canon HV20 and captured some compareble shots to compare if i can compete with some of the RED 1-2k footages. I still think i can ...

I captured some footages like i saw on Redrelay. I saw on some footages much of gain grain and noice, thats not very good.

I have captured two 2K footages to compare with the red. The first is a coffee cup with some milk drops at slowmotion and the second is a moon footage as low light situation.

This is the second moon footage (downloadable at the buttum on the right for bether quallity):
http://www.vimeo.com/893552

This is the RED footage from redrelay:
http://www.redrelay.net/owners/0102/films/1k_moon.mov

The coffee cup footage i don't know if i can make it bublic, because i use the song from the red coffee cup footage ...


Waht you think? Is it possible to compete at 1-2K?
 
Depends on the shot. I'm sure you could engineer some shots to look similar, but RED is a far more versatile camera... so RED can create a bunch of looks you'd never be able to get from a HV20.
 
Um, no?

I really wouldn't classify the Red One, a $17,000 dollar device to the HV20 and sub-$1000 camera.

I could divulge into this issue even more, but let me hit the good points:

(Just the tip of the iceberg)

- Ridiculus 12mp sensor.
- Same area as Super 35 mm, so it takes in a shallow DoF.
- 4k resolution
- Interchangeable lenses, AMAZING professional options here.
- 4 xlr channels

Hv20 records 1080p, which is great, but it does not compare to the Red Camera at all. It's for small filmmakers, and people just getting in to filmmaking.

The red is for serious filmmaking, nothing less.
 
HV 20 puts out a very good image for under $1000 camera ...
i have both camera's ... i may do a project where i use both BUT i would want the difference between the 2 camera's to stand out ...

so you want to compete with RED at ?
web , SD , HD delivery ? ... intercut it with Red ...

or you just want to pound the ole CHEST/strut around your room because you spent less then $1000 and think your image is as good as a camera costing much more ...
 
I dont want to make the red bad ... because on many many facts the red cam kicks all other cams out. So i only tested if it is possible to earn even nice footages as the red cam at some situations. If i compare with this only one moon footage i am able to say, yes ...

I saw many red footages witch are realy bad, but that is not a problem of the red cam i think. But if i see a bad looking footage i realy want to know if i can shot a better looking footage with the cheap consumer cam hv20 ... thats all.

See this as a suggestion to make better red footages in the future, so no cheap consumer cam can compete a little bit. I only wanted to know a few opinions ... about the footage.

Sorry for my bad english ...
 
All things considered...

All things considered...

GP1, first of all, thanks for bringing this camera to my attention. I hadn't heard of it till now. I mentioned on another post yesterday the possibility of using the Exilim Pro (which is 6MP) or several of them as a complement to a Red shoot where you only have one Red but need to pickup multiple angles or perhaps do some Matrix style time stop effects. However, now that I've seen this, it may be a better solution. Does anyone own both? Comparisons?

This camera could be a great low-cost 'accessory' to throw in the bag and have available if necessary. Could also be low-cost way to add "DVD-making of" footage to your shoot.

However, looking at this moon footage or even a coffee cup, it's really hard to tell the true quality, color range, depth, shadow detail, gradient smoothness, color quality, detail and motion artifcats between two cameras.

So much of it depends on lighting, subject and the talent behind the camera. It is possible to shoot footage with an HVR-Z1U or even an old XL1, de-interlace in Shake, color correct, sharpen, and de-noise even with a complex shot and make that look better than poorly shot RED footage.

So then two important questions remain.

1) If someone like say Larry Fong (Lost, Red Shoe) had both cameras on the same set, and both clips were optimally posted by a master, which one would look unquestionably better? BTW, this would only be fair if a lower-cost Nikon lens and mount were used on the Red. Which brings us to the 2nd question..

2.) How much easier would it be for said DP to get the best shot with one camera or another and how long would the post guy have to spend on each clip? Cameras like the HV20 do not have lens options, although the HVR-Z1u has wide and telephoto adapters, those have limitations. So you have to take into consideration all of the flexibility of the Red, fact you can use so many different relatively lower cost lenses and that you can shoot true 2k or 4k which the HV20 clearly cannot do without significant resampling.

If you saw the Demo at the Red booth last year (Peter Jackson's short film) you would know that there is no possible way to match that footage with the HV20, the HVR-Z1U or anything else digital under $20,000 for that matter.

In another post, I posed a theoretical about a bare-bones Red Setup, the purpose of which was simply to ascertain what you "have to buy" to be able to shoot anything at all. Most agreed you could shoot for under $19k. However, and many people made great comments about this, just because you "save" money on the gear, doesn't mean you won't spend it again in lost time, setup or post. I've fallen victim to this more times than I care to count, thinking I'm saving money but cutting corners up front. What I've learned (the hard way mind you) is that the cost of the camera (or the software, or whatever) is so insignifcant compared to all the other costs that if you can possible squeeze out the extra money up front for what you really need, you'll be glad you did and you'll save a lot of time on the shoot and in post.
That's not to say you need to spend $50,000 on a Red setup, return on investment declines as you step up the scale, but if you don't spend at least $25k-$30k up front, you'll easily spend the $5-$10k later on anyway on the set or in post.

-shooter
 
shooter said:
GP1, first of all, thanks for bringing this camera to my attention. I hadn't heard of it till now. I mentioned on another post yesterday the possibility of using the Exilim Pro (which is 6MP) or several of them as a complement to a Red shoot where you only have one Red but need to pickup multiple angles or perhaps do some Matrix style time stop effects. However, now that I've seen this, it may be a better solution. Does anyone own both? Comparisons?

This camera could be a great low-cost 'accessory' to throw in the bag and have available if necessary. Could also be low-cost way to add "DVD-making of" footage to your shoot.

However, looking at this moon footage or even a coffee cup, it's really hard to tell the true quality, color range, depth, shadow detail, gradient smoothness, color quality, detail and motion artifcats between two cameras.

So much of it depends on lighting, subject and the talent behind the camera. It is possible to shoot footage with an HVR-Z1U or even an old XL1, de-interlace in Shake, color correct, sharpen, and de-noise even with a complex shot and make that look better than poorly shot RED footage.

So then two important questions remain.

1) If someone like say Larry Fong (Lost, Red Shoe) had both cameras on the same set, and both clips were optimally posted by a master, which one would look unquestionably better? BTW, this would only be fair if a lower-cost Nikon lens and mount were used on the Red. Which brings us to the 2nd question..

2.) How much easier would it be for said DP to get the best shot with one camera or another and how long would the post guy have to spend on each clip? Cameras like the HV20 do not have lens options, although the HVR-Z1u has wide and telephoto adapters, those have limitations. So you have to take into consideration all of the flexibility of the Red, fact you can use so many different relatively lower cost lenses and that you can shoot true 2k or 4k which the HV20 clearly cannot do without significant resampling.

If you saw the Demo at the Red booth last year (Peter Jackson's short film) you would know that there is no possible way to match that footage with the HV20, the HVR-Z1U or anything else digital under $20,000 for that matter.

In another post, I posed a theoretical about a bare-bones Red Setup, the purpose of which was simply to ascertain what you "have to buy" to be able to shoot anything at all. Most agreed you could shoot for under $19k. However, and many people made great comments about this, just because you "save" money on the gear, doesn't mean you won't spend it again in lost time, setup or post. I've fallen victim to this more times than I care to count, thinking I'm saving money but cutting corners up front. What I've learned (the hard way mind you) is that the cost of the camera (or the software, or whatever) is so insignifcant compared to all the other costs that if you can possible squeeze out the extra money up front for what you really need, you'll be glad you did and you'll save a lot of time on the shoot and in post.
That's not to say you need to spend $50,000 on a Red setup, return on investment declines as you step up the scale, but if you don't spend at least $25k-$30k up front, you'll easily spend the $5-$10k later on anyway on the set or in post.

-shooter
Click to expand...
If you are interested on the HV20, the CMOS has nice specs: 1/2,7" with 2.070.000 Pixel. But not comparable with the red specs.

By this way, thank you for your opinions ...
 
How does the RED compete against the Panasonic AG-456 Professional Full Size SVHS Camcorder in a SD battle? These (VS) threads are getting annoying.
 
shooter said:
1) If someone like say Larry Fong (Lost, Red Shoe) had both cameras on the same set, and both clips were optimally posted by a master, which one would look unquestionably better? BTW, this would only be fair if a lower-cost Nikon lens and mount were used on the Red. Which brings us to the 2nd question..

2.) How much easier would it be for said DP to get the best shot with one camera or another and how long would the post guy have to spend on each clip? Cameras like the HV20 do not have lens options, although the HVR-Z1u has wide and telephoto adapters, those have limitations. So you have to take into consideration all of the flexibility of the Red, fact you can use so many different relatively lower cost lenses and that you can shoot true 2k or 4k which the HV20 clearly cannot do without significant resampling.
Click to expand...

1. RED, RED and RED again... no questions asked :) Although the Nikon lens would bring the image down a little but RAW has a look that's closer to film and HV20 can't compete with that. Also you would still have the S35mm DOF, even though it's Nikon lenses and 2K would still be S16 DOF.

2. Most probably similar in time. I found that making a image looking good in front of the camera is more or less always constant. If the shot needs lighting it will be the same whatever format you shoot. If the shot doesn't but needs a professional eye to see how to find the best opportunity it will most of the time take equally long to find it. As for "treating" the format I would say it's the same.


Fredrik Callinggard
 
Abu Reno said:
How does the RED compete against the Panasonic AG-456 Professional Full Size SVHS Camcorder in a SD battle? These (VS) threads are getting annoying.
Click to expand...
So delate the thread or the internet.
 
If your final result is only being displayed on youtube or 720x480 or whatever, sure you might be able to get some similar shots, especially if it's just landscapes or deep-focus shots with easy lighting conditions. Even then, RED has more dynamic range and better performance in low light, just for starters. If you are talking about comparing these for 1080p, 2K, or film out.. HAHAHAHA. HV20 footage does't even really hold up 720p, let alone 1080p.
 
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