Red Zooms - who is producing these lenses

[Stephen Williams]

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fingers crossed, hopefully the client will have a decent monitoring to spot the weaknesses in the hdv footage.

Hi,

I am going to pay for a small cinema, the HDV footage can be digitally projected on the domestic projector they use for commercials, my footage will be contact printed from the 35mm neg.

Stephen

 

[laguun]

Hi,
I am going to pay for a small cinema, the HDV footage can be digitally projected on the domestic projector they use for commercials, my footage will be contact printed from the 35mm neg.
Stephen

that should give you a good headstart

- if they have a good dci compliant digital beamer, it will expose the weaknesses in the hdv.
- if they have a bad beamer, it will look ugly as well

 

[Steve Gibby]

red offerings are great, but in lenses they are, specwise, not the best, only very good.

Shouldn’t that judgment be reserved until after RED lenses ship and are tested? If a lower T stop number is the only determination of the quality of a lens, then we are to ignore the other factors in lens quality – MTF, CA, bokeh, falloff, etc, etc., etc.?

one example: when we talk with our customers about the camera, they are quite interested as the red one offers many unique advances in quality (4K), ergonomics (light, compact, no moving parts) and creativity (digital 120p @ 35mm dof). When we speak about the lenses, then there are no such breakthroughs, only very good, but not surpassing the competition - besides the excellent price.

How do your customers know that at this point, before the RED lenses ship and are tested? If their opinions (and yours) on the quality of RED lenses are just based on T stop numbers, and the RED lenses have not been tested, how do your customers (and you) draw an educated opinion on that?

i think we will basicly see four segments in the market:
a) photoglass, rehoused/assisted by peripherals for the best bargain
b) s16 & 2/3 for highspeed 60/120p as well as handheld & eng
c) 35mm regular use, i suppose here will be the sweetspot for red (and used 35mm glass)
d) 35mm top-end/budget doesn´t matter class, i suppose zeiss/angenieux/cooke will be remaining dominant there for quite some time.

I think you have some good points in there, but:

Why use the term “eng” (electronic news gathering)? ENG will be an extremely limited market for RED One (some b-roll, etc.). It is EFP (electronic field production) that is IMO the single largest potential market for RED One, specifically non-hardlined EFP. If you’re not familiar with the difference between EFP and ENG, I’ve summarized and described them in my sticky on the EFP and ENG for RED forum. Link: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1105

Again, shouldn’t the judgment in your categories “c” and “d” be reserved until RED lenses ship and are tested? I’ve seen in 4k resolution, the results of the RED 300mm lens, and I was pleasantly surprised by what I saw. If Mark Nevaldine, Steven Soderbergh, and others are now beta testing the RED 18-50 CF zoom, and stating that they really liked the results, I think those educated opinions signal that the RED lenses are very good quality - and again that T stop numbers don’t tell the whole story when judging a lens.

I wish you are right, however, i suppose that a large chunk of the commercial market demand will stay with the "best of the best" lens category if the difference is only $.$$$ or $$.$$$. AE/combustion/shake/fusion/nuke/color/speedgrade etc do exist, but so do smoke/flame, ds, scratch/clipster, pablo/iq etc.

Yes, but budgets are budgets. A penny saved is a penny earned. Producers set goals for quality, but each project is budget driven. In a convergent motion media industry there are vast numbers of workers who don’t come from a tradition-bound film industry, but rather a more budget-conscious EFP and digital photography industry – and they represent the largest single consumer demographic for RED products.

for the last 10-15% performance, you usually pay 100-150% more, and these markets do exist, especially in moviemaking.

It’s not the end viewer who is demanding that last 10-15% performance – it’s certain perfectionist directors, DPs, and cinematographers. In a vertical distribution model of this century, that ranges form big screen down to iPod, with the majority revenue for most productions being from ancillary streams, the need for that last 10-15% has essentially evaporated. If the end viewer isn’t demanding that last 10-15%, but only a few crew members, than economics will certainly be a key consideration by budget-conscious producers – and again, who’s to say the RED lenses won’t get you that last 10-15% in performance until they’ve been shipped and tested – unless of course you’re measuring lens performance on T stop numbers only.

- many of the top-lens manufacturers are sold out on their top 35mm product lines (angenieux for sure is) at the current price point and would make less profit -and- revenue when lowering prices.

The lens market is dynamic, and subject to the influence of economies of scale, micro-economics, and macro-economics. Just as top camera manufacturers have had to come to the realization that RED One will change the dynamic of the D-cinema and EFP camera market, top lens manufacturers need to realize the RED lenses will change the dynamic of the 35mm lens market. A line of high quality, affordable S35mm lenses has never existed – and in this case they are being designed and optimized for digital imaging. If cinematographers end up getting great images with RED lenses, that satisfy their most demanding imaging needs, then wouldn’t that affect the price point of both used and new top lens manufacturer’s products?

- many rental houses have existing 35mm lenses, which have been paid for and can react with rental prices, if price and not specs decide the deal.

True, and they are always interested in maximizing their investment in legacy equipment. But its still a dynamic industry, and at some point customer demand for certain products will force rental houses to turn over their old equipment and invest in newer equipment when customers are asking for it. If RED lenses test well, and they’re obviously affordable, then I would guess that rental customers will be asking for RED lenses, and the old rate model of exorbitant rental prices for “top level” lenses could begin to crumble.

- better f/t-stops results often in less necessary light, so a faster lens often is cheaper to rent than the additional light.

But how about the results of RED’s recent ISO tests? The Mysterium sensor is obviously very sensitive and can be pushed without significant noise in the images. That should enable shooting in low light situations with no additional light. That also could change the need (and thus rental demand) for faster lenses in many situations. Shooting wide open and hyper-shallow DOF gets a lot of press, but the fact remains that the vast majority of shots across both the cine style and EFP style industries are at medium DOF, with hyper shallow and deep DOF shots being necessary, but in the minority. The RED lenses should be fast enough to achieve all but the shallowest of DOF requirements.

- DPs can be pretty conservative: shooting digital, electronic viewfinders etc are still a mayor change some of them in their working experience, so expect many DPs who "at least" want to stay with -exactly- the lens they know/want/are used to.

RED One is closest in technology to a DSLR, followed by a video camera, and only remotely related in technology to a film camera, with most of that being in lenses. The EFP industry dwarfs the film and D-cinema industries in terms of sheer numbers of productions worldwide each year, and the number of workers employed. Rental houses need to realize that the single largest purchase and rental market for RED one and RED lenses is the worldwide EFP industry. Conservative film industry DPs who are grudgingly adopting digital technology, represent and extreme minority of the potential purchase and rental market for RED One and RED lenses. Yes, they will change slowly for many factors, but they’re just the tip of the RED sales and rental iceberg, with the remainder of that iceberg being the giant numbers of adopters from the EFP industry, DSLR industry, and progressive-thinking film industry people.

 

[Steve Gibby]

Hi,

High end motion picture lenses hardly breathe at all, this IMHO is probably by far the more important factor for people who have been working with such lenses.
People coming form an ENG background don't seem too concerned.

Stephen

Yes, low breathing is a priority for traditional cine-style shooters. If you’ve tested RED lenses and can give us some details about their breathing or lack thereof, then how about posting that data. I’m assuming you haven’t, so why the foregone conclusion that “high end motion picture” lenses breath less?

High-end motion pictures are but one of many genres of cine style and EFP style productions that RED One and RED lenses will be used in. I think your post reflects an elitist position, the typical traditionalist film industry attitude of “We’re the real professionals because we shoot high end motion pictures and film, and the those ENG guys invading our workspace are a bunch of aesthetically-challenged, non-artistic, automatic feature using oafs who simply point cameras at things without trying to achieve good quality images”. IMO your sarcastic statement belongs on one of the territorialistic cinematography boards – not here on RED User where professionals are converging from cine style, EFP style, and the still photography industries.

Your generalization about “ENG” people is ludicrous. Lumping ENG in with EFP is also ridiculous. Firstly, ENG is “electronic news gathering”. RED One will be used in ENG only for very limited use – for some b-roll, and few other limited uses. RED One will be used for a vast number of EFP (electronic field production) genres and productions, usually non-hardlined, but also some significant numbers of hardlined EFP. In fact, the EFP industry is the largest industry in motion media production, and easily the largest market for RED One cameras and RED lenses. ENG is a tiny niche within the overall EFP industry, and the number of ENG people and entities adopting RED One and RED lenses will be miniscule. If you’re not clear on the EFP and ENG industries, and their genres and sub-genres, you might want to read my “EFP & ENG Definitions & Explanations” sticky at the top of the “EFP/ENG and RED” forum here on RED User.
Link: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1105


Yes Stephen, EFP professionals do care about getting top-quality images and pay attention to such things as lens breathing. We shoot the vast majority of our camera functions manually, and when it comes to lenses, we’re also interested in MTF curves, CA, bokeh, rolloff, and the various qualities of lenses. Many of us use high end motion picture lenses on day, and EFP lenses the next – and we don’t just shut off our professionalism when we switch over to EFP work. I’m a film guy, video guy, and still photo guy, and I give respect to the workers in all those industries. I’ve broadened out in skill sets, industries, and genres enough over the past four decades of making images to realize that there are some tremendously talented shooters coming from all of the converging image-making industries.

 

[Steve Gibby]

Since a Red zoom is very short in range compared to ENG zooms they are not build for ENG. Even for highend documentary I find the ranges to short. A S16/HD option will be more satisfying.

ENG (electronic news gathering) is limited-use market for RED One and RED lenses. On the other hand EFP (electronic field production) is the largest market for RED One and RED lens use, in terms of sheer numbers of productions worldwide each year. That you would even mention RED zooms for ENG shows me that you don’t know the difference between ENG and EFP, or the divisions of EFP: non-hardlined and hardlined, both of which are key markets for RED One and RED lenses. If you’re not clear on the EFP and ENG industries, and their genres and sub-genres, you might want to read my “EFP & ENG Definitions & Explanations” sticky at the top of the “EFP/ENG and RED” forum here on RED User.
Link: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1105

My most recent Emmy Award was for a documentary. I’ve reserved each of the RED zooms (18-50, 18-85, 50-150), and the prime set, and I can assure you that I will be using them in my next documentary. I’ll fly the shorter lenses on a stabilization unit. I will also use S16 and 2/3” HD ENG zooms for certain documentary sequences.

Feature film (cinema / TV), commercials, high end corporate, this is the typical range of application for RED lenses, zooms and primes. Of course, there is the independet filmmaker but this market is small and not "rich" at all. They will find RED lenses expensive and might go the photo lens route.

For a recent magazine article I wrote, I listed the following as just some of the suggested uses for RED One:

Feature films (2540p, 4K, 2K) Indie films (4K, 2K or 1080p) HDTV programs (4K, 2K, 1080p, 720p) Commercials (4K, 2K, 1080p, 720p) Infomercials (4K, 2K, 1080p, 720p) Stock footage acquisition (4K, 2K, 1080p, 720p) Music videos (4K, 2K, 1080p, 720p) Business videos (2K, 1080p, 720p) HDTV News & promo B-roll (1080p, 720p) POV deck (1080p, 720p, with a cigar cam) POV mount camera (2K, 1080p, 720p) In-water camera with a custom housing (4K, 2K, 1080p, 720p) Aerial handheld and gimbal mounted (2K, 1080p, 720p) Events of various sizes (1080p, 720p) Film festival screenings (4K, 2K, 1080p, 720p) Broadcast teases and promos (2K, 1080p, 720p) Public service announcements (2K, 1080p, 720p) Note: 1080i, if needed, can be extracted from any format RED ONE shoots

A lot of those genres are EFP in the shooting style, even though they may use some cine-style lenses and equipment. Again – the EFP market is the largest market segment for RED one and RED lenses.

Thus, RED lenses have to face Zeiss, Cooke and Angenieux in a market which is used to expensive high-end glas and where people usually rent - so the price of the lenses relativise but performance not.

RED lenses have yet to ship and be tested, so how can you judge their performance relative to Zeiss, Cooke, and Angenieux? Are you basing that on cost and T stop numbers? If so, see my comments to Laguun above. There are many factors to overall lens performance beyond T stop ratings.

Since choosing a lens is a very personal, creative decision I will wait with any comment on quality, usability, look and feel until I worked with them.

LOL…here you say you’ll reserve your judgment on quality, usability, and look and feel until you’ve worked with RED lenses, and yet your earlier statements in your post show exactly the opposite – that you have RED lenses already niched in performance below other top quality lenses, and limited to certain narrow markets.

 

[PaulClements]

Breathe Gibby

 

[Adrian T.]

Breathe Gibby

LOL! :biggrin:

 

[Steve Gibby]

Inhales...........aaaaaaaah! :wink:

 

[Stephen Williams]

If you’ve tested RED lenses and can give us some details about their breathing or lack thereof, then how about posting that data. I’m assuming you haven’t, so why the foregone conclusion that “high end motion picture” lenses breath less?

Gibby,

I said:-

"High end motion picture lenses hardly breathe at all, this IMHO is probably by far the more important factor for people who have been working with such lenses."

Did I say Red lenses breathed or could not be classed as high end motion picture lenses?

If your saying the Red Zoom does not breathe.........I will get a chance to see them at IBC then I will know the answer.

Stephen

 

[Stephen Williams]

Yes Stephen, EFP professionals do care about getting top-quality images and pay attention to such things as lens breathing. We shoot the vast majority of our camera functions manually, and when it comes to lenses, we’re also interested in MTF curves, CA, bokeh, rolloff, and the various qualities of lenses. Many of us use high end motion picture lenses on day, and EFP lenses the next – and we don’t just shut off our professionalism when we switch over to EFP work. I’m a film guy, video guy, and still photo guy, and I give respect to the workers in all those industries. I’ve broadened out in skill sets, industries, and genres enough over the past four decades of making images to realize that there are some tremendously talented shooters coming from all of the converging image-making industries.

Hi Gibby,

I never mentioned EFP!

Stephen

 

[Steve Gibby]

Gibby,

I said:-

"High end motion picture lenses hardly breathe at all, this IMHO is probably by far the more important factor for people who have been working with such lenses."

Did I say Red lenses breathed or could not be classed as high end motion picture lenses?

If your saying the Red Zoom does not breathe.........I will get a chance to see them at IBC then I will know the answer.

Stephen

This thread is about RED lenses, so I think it can be reasonable deduced by readers of your post, that yes, you were pointing to supposed breathing with RED lenses.

I'm not saying RED lenses don't breathe. I am saying that judgment of how much they breathe should be reserved until production lenses ship and they can be tested.

IBC exhibition runs September 7-11. RED has recently stated that the shipping schedule for RED One cameras is still valid as posted. RED One cameras 1-50 are on that schedule for a date given of August 30. There's a separate forum on RED User about the L.A. REDTest sessions (LART) which will take place immediately after cameras 1-50 ship, and four of those cameras are scheduled to be part of the LART testing. Two of the RED lenses I've reserved are scheduled to ship with my camera: 18-50 CF zoom and the 300mm tele. We'll test the 18-50 extensively in real world shooting scenarios, in artificial and natural light, by the LART team of highly-experienced DPs and cinematographers. If RED's camera delivery schedule holds, and we have the LART testing immediately, those results will be posted here on RED User, and pre-date your attendance at IBC by a week - plus it will be extensive testing, not just the limited impressions you can get by briefly using the 18-50 at an IBC booth.

And yes...me and the rest of the LART team have used "high end motion picture" lenses extensively, so their performance parameters are very familiar to us. I'm saying let's reserve judgment on RED lenses until they ship and can be tested.

 

[Steve Gibby]

Hi Gibby,

I never mentioned EFP!

Stephen

Ahhh...that's exactly my point Stephen. You mentioned ENG when ENG is only a very distant and limited market for RED. So why bring up ENG then? Many traditional film shooters enjoy lumping television industry and non-cine style shooters under the catch-all misnomer of "ENG" - when the vast majority of television production, and non-broadcast production is various flavors of EFP. Very few dedicated ENG shooters or ENG organizational entities will be adopting RED. EFP is a totally different story though, particularly non-hardlined EFP - its the largest single potential market for the RED camera system.

 

[Stephen Williams]

This thread is about RED lenses, so I think it can be reasonable deduced by readers of your post, that yes, you were pointing to supposed breathing with RED lenses.

I'm not saying RED lenses don't breathe. I am saying that judgment of how much they breathe should be reserved until production lenses ship and they can be tested.

Hi Gibby,

I own 20 - 30 year old Zeiss & Cooke lenses, I would hope that new Red lenses out perform those old lenses. I don't think that's so elitist or unreasonable expectations on my part. FWIW the Red lenses are rather more expensive than the lenses I own.

Stephen

 

[Stephen Williams]

So why bring up ENG then?

Hi Gibby,

I said "People coming form an ENG background don't seem too concerned" which I believe to be a true statement with regard to lens breathing.

I brought it up because if it turns out the Red zoom lens does breathe, then I don't think it's a issue for many potential customers, if they dont breathe at all then everybody will be happy.

Stephen

 

[Steve Gibby]

Hi Gibby,

I own 20 - 30 year old Zeiss & Cooke lenses, I would hope that new Red lenses out perform those old lenses. I don't think that's so elitist or unreasonable expectations on my part. FWIW the Red lenses are rather more expensive than the lenses I own.

Stephen

Since RED has stated that their lenses are optimized for digital imaging, and RED One is a D-cinema camera, IMO there will be a very good chance that RED lenses will out perform your old film lenses on a RED One. I've personally seen 4k footage from an early RED protype shot with a RED 300mm prototype lens, and screened in 4k in Los Angeles, and it looked exceptional. I've used a lot of old Zeiss and Cooke lenses and I can honestly say that I don't think any of them could have given results better than the REDCODE RAW 4k/300mm/L.A. 4k screened footage I saw.

Nobody is saying you can't get good results with your old film lenses on a RED One. What RED is saying though, is that their lenses are optimized for digital imaging, developed for use on RED One, and RED one has a digital sensor. New RED lenses may be more expensive than your old film lenses, but they are positioned vastly less expensive than other cine lenses, and in view of what I just said above, the RED lenses may very well generate the very best images obtainable for a RED One camera system. We'll know a lot more about that shortly when the cameras and lenses ship and we can do some field testing with them.

 

[Steve Gibby]

Hi Gibby,

I said "People coming form an ENG background don't seem too concerned" which I believe to be a true statement with regard to lens breathing.

I brought it up because if it turns out the Red zoom lens does breathe, then I don't think it's a issue for many potential customers, if they dont breathe at all then everybody will be happy.

Stephen

A miniscule portion of ENG industry people will be adopting RED One, and even then for very limited use (some b-roll), so why bring ENG people up at all? I believe I was right in deducing that you were erroneously using ENG as a collective term for non-cine style shooters - in other words TV, video, business, events, etc. Again electronic news gathering (ENG) is just one tiny little niche within the overall EFP family of production genres - and yet it gets erroneously used repeatedly by film people and others in the motion media industry as the catch-all phrase for non-cine style production. Three people in this thread alone used the term ENG in erroneous contexts - I think you get the point.

I do agree that certain adopters of RED One and RED lenses are less concerned about breathing, as long as it is within acceptable limits for professional production use. There will always be perfectionists in the imaging industry, and all of us (including myself), demand near-perfection when it is needed for a particular project or part thereof, but I think we need to keep in mind the broad range of cine-style and EFP style productions that RED One and the RED lenses will be used for. Very few of them demand near-perfection from a lens.

If RED lenses don't breathe, or breathe little, it will be exciting indeed. If they breathe within standards for professional use, so be it. If someone wants to pay four times as much per lens, or much more in rental fees, to achieve a slight reduction in breathing, I guess that's their choice. Again, this conversation is all moot until the cameras and lenses ship and they are tested - something that will will happen shortly.

 

[Stephen Williams]

Since RED has stated that their lenses are optimized for digital imaging, and RED One is a D-cinema camera,

Hi Gibby,

Are the Red lenses just 'telecentric' or is there more to that in the optimization?

Stephen

 

[Steve Gibby]

Hi Gibby,

Are the Red lenses just 'telecentric' or is there more to that in the optimization?

Stephen

That's a question for RED - and once again, a question that will be answered shortly when the cameras and lenses ship. A lot of digital image sensors work well with telecentric lenses because chroma variation and shading problems are minimized. But telecentric lenses usually tend to be larger, heavier, and more expensive than normal lenses with similar T or F ratings, and focal lengths. That doesn't seem to be RED's philosophy in lens construction. Their lenses seem to be smaller, lighter, and less expensive. I've handled the 18-50 CF zoom, and I'd estimate it to be about 5" long and weighs about 3 pounds.

Here's Jim Jannard's position on RED lenses, and I would assume that he knows a lot more about them than you or I do. Sure, he's interested in marketing lenses, but those lenses will need to ultimately deliver on what is stated about them. Jannard has always struck me as a guy who is very interested in delivering what he claims he is going to deliver:

"IMHO all RED users should own the RED 18-50mm CF zoom, the 50-150mm RED zoom, the 300mm f2.8 RED telephoto and all the RED primes.

All are designed for digital imaging..."

Jim Jannard
7/1/07
DVi
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=94153&page=2

 

[Evin Grant]

In the digital still photography world "designed for digital" lenses generally differ from thier film couterparts in two or three ways, the first is wheather or not they cover the full 35mm (Still 24x36mm) frame. In the Nikon line there are digital lenses optimised for this format (17-35mm f2.8, 70-200 f2.8) as well as "DX" lenses optimised for the 16x24mm APS-C format, either will cover Red's 4K sensor. In the Canon line all of the L series glass is optimised for both formats but the EF-S line is for the 16x24mm format only. This is also about telecentricity as refered to in an earlier post.

Secondly a digital lens will often be much better corrected for chromatic abberation and dispersion. This is becuase an imaging sensor is much thinner than a piece of film, and film also has three layers of color sensitivity so all the wavelengths don't need to be focused as precisely to the same point. This is why ED, UD and Aspherical lens elements have been implemented even in standard digital lenses. This means that most digitally optimised lenses have a higher resolution than thier film couterparts as well, although it depends on vintage and design, some lenses really are timeless (Read my reviews, Shameless plug)

Lastly digital optimised lenses have the ability to pass on information (Meta data) about thier focal length, aperture and focus distance, to the image file, this has been incorperated in almost all auto focus lenses since the begining of digital imaging but it's just now becoming standard in the cinematography world.

So how might Red's lenses be superior to other cinema lenses on the market?
1: Designed to perfectly cover the Red One's S35mm sensor
2: Optimised for focusing all wavelengths on a digital sensor plane
3: Designed to eliminate or reduce CA and dispersion on the Mysterium sensor
5: Able to resolve to the full 4.5K of the Mysterium sensor
4: Able to pass Meta data to the clip via the Cooke /i system

 

[Steve Gibby]

Agreed Evin...nice summary.

I would imagine RED would summarize it in similar terms. Jim Jannard is a man of few words, but I believe when he said in his quote "All are designed for digital imaging" that the points you made are similar to what he had in mind.