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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

red zoom 17-50 on alexa?

U

utku sonmezer

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hey i recently worked in a commercial shot with alexa. The dop wanted to use red zoom 17-50 for the aerial stuff. I was not able to mount that lens on to the camera i think something is wrong with either the design of the lens or the alexa pl mount. I couldnt lock the mount so i had to remove some parts of the pl mount. Is this problem occured to anyone? And who's fault is this red's or arri's ?
 
utku sonmezer said:
who's fault is this red's or arri's ?
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Hey mate - Red are a company that operate unlike other companies, def not corporates. They communicate with you one on one thru this forum like a friend, however they often react with spite too if they are made to feel uncomfortable. Just a hunch, but putting RED and ARRI in the same sentence and asking "who's fault is it", I could imagine is insulting to RED and they wouldn't bother dignifying such a question with a response given both the legalities that are going on, and well.. the question itself. I could be wrong.... but hope that helps :)

:) :)
 
Its likely that this isn't either companies fault.

It happens that some lenses just don't mount on some cameras, for various reasons. I know some PL lenses don't mount on PL film cameras because of oddities ... most often to do with how far the rear lens element projects. I read on the Internet that this even includes some Arri lenses on Arri cameras.

That said, I haven't heard of any problems using the Red 17-50 on Alexa, but I have not used it myself.

You also get problems with specific lenses and specific cameras. Both the RPZ 17-50 and Alexa are pretty new ... but you never know how they got beat by the last renter. Even without damage though, the design tolerances for PL cameras are pretty tight. If the Red lens is at one end of acceptable tolerance and the Alexa mount is at the other ... then neither are "wrong" but they may just not fit properly - or at all.

Generally speaking Red lenses are completely compatible with the PL standard.

I've used the Red 18-85 on Alexa without any problems. I've seen Red Pro Primes used on Alexa, but I couldn't tell you if there were problems.

I've also used every one of Red's lenses on Sony's F3 cameras without a hitch, and I've used RPP with F35 and the 35mm version of the Sony 9500. (Intercutting with Arri Zooms actually.)
 
Don't want to hijack this thread but I've been trying to get to the bottom of RPP's on ARRI BL35 cameras. All the ARRI BL series of cameras have a " chin", where the casing covering the movement , potrudes out directly under the PL mount. Because the RPP lens barrels are so big , they maybe "touch" this "chin" thus preventing it from fitting into the PL mount. I've never been able to confirm this one way or another. ..... anyone?......
 
Jiri Vrozina said:
How did you help?
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Alexander Ibrahim said:
Yeah ... you're right, and I'm embarrassed.
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Guys, I'm pointing out the fact the Jim is taking legal action with Arri and that a post asking who to blame (red or arri) might not sit comfortably with the Red team. There is no need to get narky with school yard mentality. Why are people like this over the net?
 
Kacey Baker said:
Guys, I'm pointing out the fact the Jim is taking legal action with Arri and that a post asking who to blame (red or arri) might not sit comfortably with the Red team. There is no need to get narky with school yard mentality. Why are people like this over the net?
Click to expand...

What are you doing being reasonable?

This is the INTERNET.

We scream and get snarky at the drop of a hat for ... well for nothing at all really.

Once again, Sorry Jiri.
 
As with most things on the net, I think there is a little communication barrier. I know Utku personally. He is a really good young man, and strong supporter of the digital (RED) movement in Istanbul. There aren't many of us out here, but Utku is one of the guys that gets it. He was likely not trying to point fingers at anyone, but that's how it came across. He speaks English very well, but it isn't his first language. The word "fault" was maybe a bad choice, and Kacey was right in pointing that out. Simple internet misunderstanding :)

With that said, I too find it surprising that a PL lens doesn't fit on a PL camera mount, so I understand why Utku raises the question. One would think it is a standard measurement, right? Now that I know this situation isn't unique to the Red 17-50 and Arri PL mount combo (Thanks to Alexander), it doesn't seem so weird to me. I buy into the oppostie ends of the tolerances argument until I do my own testing. It sounds like a reasonable explanation. Anyone else have any experience using the RED 17-50 with the Alexa?
 
here is what happened. Im an ac and i was booked by a production company for a 3 day commercial film shooting in out of town. Usually what i do is i go to the rental house and check the equipment on the list that the dp gave to me. But since pl is a standard. I dont check if the lenses will fit on the camera. So consider yourself in a place where there is no chance that you can change the lens or the camera and right next to you there is a chopper and a pilot ready. One dp and one director who are really angry and lookin to you like 'what kind of camera assistant is unable to put a lens to a camera?' So what im sayin is if i cant put a pl lens to a pl mount camera there is gotta be a problem.
 
Was this due to the burly diameter of the Red 17-50 or something protruding at the rear in the mount area ? No fault either way of course.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com
 
utku sonmezer said:
here is what happened. Im an ac and i was booked by a production company for a 3 day commercial film shooting in out of town. Usually what i do is i go to the rental house and check the equipment on the list that the dp gave to me. But since pl is a standard. I dont check if the lenses will fit on the camera. So consider yourself in a place where there is no chance that you can change the lens or the camera and right next to you there is a chopper and a pilot ready. One dp and one director who are really angry and lookin to you like 'what kind of camera assistant is unable to put a lens to a camera?' So what im sayin is if i cant put a pl lens to a pl mount camera there is gotta be a problem.
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I think that you could have done a better prep. Many ac's will use the prep day to work through basic problems you can run into on set or in the field. This is one of them.

I've had ac's make sure all the lenses are correctly shimmed for backfocus and even let me know if there were problems with focus marks or if a lens is stiff in a section of the focus ring, etc.

Bottom line. Be meticulous. That was your responsibility to check out the gear. Assume nothing. Test everything. That is what you paid to do. Great AC's make their money on prep days looking out for problems like this.

I'd be effing pissed if I had a chopper rented, everything prepped and find this out on the day.

Not good.

Take this as a lesson to be better and provide a higher level of service.
 
I agree with everything David said. He is dead on... There should absolutely be a more thorough prep day. Unfortunately, there is one thing I think you should know about the commercial industry here in Turkey. AC's don't get paid for prep days, unless there is film involved and sometimes not even then. There is no prep day for digital shoots. Just pick up days and they don't get paid for that either. It's pretty terrible. That's why I don't feel bad for the production company. I only feel bad that the pilot, DP, ACs, and everyone else wasted there time, so someone could save a couple hundred dollars. The worst part is that Utku is the one that looks bad. Its the wild west out here. Workers have no rights, and there is a line stretching from here to Iran to get a job in the industry. Production companies are cut throat and only care about the bottom line. Let me give you an example of a normal work day in the Turkish commercial industry:

Call: 6:00 am
Lunch: 2:00 pm
2nd meal: 10:00pm
3rd meal: 4:00am
Wrap: 6:00 am

I am not exaggerating either. I have done this exact shoot schedule at least 10 times in the last year! The worst part is that at least a few people from each shoot go directly to there next shoot without sleeping. Its extremely dangerous to say the least. Oh yeah, no overtime either... flat rate! These things don't change overnight. For the sake of talented young guys like Utku, I just hope it changes :)
 
I should send this post to Haskell Wexler.

I was part of the 12 on 12 off campaign in Toronto.

This is what 24 on 0 off.

Awful. Shame.

I hear you totally Clint.
 
Yeah man, we need something to change. They have never even heard the phrase "turn around time". Remember 24 hours is pretty normal. My longest shoot was 30 hours straight and I'm nowhere near what some other crew members have done. Production companies are turning 2 and 3 day shoots into one and just not stopping until its finished. They call that a day somehow? Rental companies don't charge for the extra time either. Everyone is courting the production company because they have all the money. The worst worst part is that the directors feel like they have to work for 24 hours or the agency may think he doesn't care. Not all, but a lot of them.

Okay, I've highjacked Utku's thread enough. Thanks for listening to me vent :) So, has anyone had any luck with the 17-50 on the Alexa? Is there a modification you can do that will let you use that lens on both camera systems?
 
Clint Lealos said:
I agree with everything David said. He is dead on... There should absolutely be a more thorough prep day. Unfortunately, there is one thing I think you should know about the commercial industry here in Turkey. AC's don't get paid for prep days, unless there is film involved and sometimes not even then. There is no prep day for digital shoots. Just pick up days and they don't get paid for that either. It's pretty terrible. That's why I don't feel bad for the production company. I only feel bad that the pilot, DP, ACs, and everyone else wasted there time, so someone could save a couple hundred dollars. The worst part is that Utku is the one that looks bad. Its the wild west out here. Workers have no rights, and there is a line stretching from here to Iran to get a job in the industry. Production companies are cut throat and only care about the bottom line. Let me give you an example of a normal work day in the Turkish commercial industry:

Call: 6:00 am
Lunch: 2:00 pm
2nd meal: 10:00pm
3rd meal: 4:00am
Wrap: 6:00 am

I am not exaggerating either. I have done this exact shoot schedule at least 10 times in the last year! The worst part is that at least a few people from each shoot go directly to there next shoot without sleeping. Its extremely dangerous to say the least. Oh yeah, no overtime either... flat rate! These things don't change overnight. For the sake of talented young guys like Utku, I just hope it changes :)
Click to expand...
This is where unions are helpful. Although, even over here in the US, non-union shoots can pretty much do whatever they want. It's a shame. Many people have been killed or severely hurt because of ridiculous shooting schedules. My opinion is if there isn't enough budget to do something with a proper shooting schedule, then maybe it isn't worth doing the shoot at all. It's no secret that overworked, tired crews end up producing compromised work, so producers who think they are getting more bang for their buck should step back and assess whether that is actually true.
 
Overtime is cheaper than shoot days. it's as simple as that. None if the people crunching those numbers are working 18 hour days though.

They should just build a barracks beside the set and let people stay there with a locker and some extra clothes instead of the drive time too and from set. Going home for four hours is just dumb. Better to have a few nights or weeks away from the family than to have a widow/er and/or orphaned children.

You should watch Haskells doc, film workers are among the most poorly treated workers in the USA. The companies are not liable because each film is it's own corporation. The big studios don't carry any liability.

It's a problem everywhere. Not just Turkey.

In any case. I'm sre that 17-50 would produce great images on the Alexa. The 18mm doesn't fit on some film cameras either. Maybe dulcos or optitek have a mod.
 
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