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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Red Workflow - Ted's thoughts Du Jour

TedRed

TedRed

"The Mouth"
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So I'm on a plane waiting to take off to head to yet another seminar to talk about the RED camera and associated workflow, pursuing the forum on my iphone, and was compelled to write something once we took off. I of course know and see all the value of the open discussion on many levels, and the mix of information, while sometimes overwhelming, is a very good thing.

A couple simple questions - those that are complaining that the workflow is under developed, and not working well on the Mac... have you actually tried it, or are you just speculating based on what you've heard rumors about?

Red, Apple and Assimilate have been working very hard to create workflows that are logical, cost effective and make sense for a wide range of users.

Is it perfect yet? No... Do we still have work to do? Yes... Can it do amazing, groundbreaking things on the Mac platform and offer a number of workflow options for different kinds of post production requirements? Yes... Have many RED shot projects been moved through this workflow successfully? Yes.... Are there various options for a render free and a transcode option to edit RED footage? Yes.... Has the open developer community added value to RED by creating tools and utilities to enhance and help the workflow for Avid be more viable while that engineering work continues to progress? Yes... Is there a viable realtime option for creating HD or 2K media for a traditional offline/online worklfow for Avid projects? Yes...

I would like to hear from some of the those actually working with RED camera footage on a regular basis on what their experiences have been with the FCP workflow and the Assimilate finishing pathways. I'm totally fine with hearing the rough spots, but often the ones that are most quiet on the forums are the ones actually working on projects all the time, with little or no time to post on forums. The good news is the typically the silent majority - they don't need to complain if things are working as expected.

Mark from Off Hollywood and Michael from Plaster City, and others in the community that are working on projects now - this is your call to clear up some of the misconceptions about what works well, what works OK, and what areas still need work. Each of you are using the FCP workflow options to their best viability in different ways, with different recommendations to your clients, and both have successful projects under your belts.

It's important to note that NLE post is a tricky game, with lots of variables all need to work in harmony to achieve a good user experience. It's important to be fully aware that RED RAW footage in up to 4k resolution is being turned from it's Raw state to a viewable color space on the fly and created at a viewable resolution using the power of today’s intel procs. It's pretty incredible what it's accomplishing today, and will continue to improve as desktop computers increase their power.

Jim has already mentioned that we are working on a tiered strategy for the SDK, and that the ever changing nature of the work we are doing requires the schedule to be fully flexible. It's important to remember that our target dates are based on engineering progress - they are not set in stone, and never will be. So when we are late on something, it's because our estimates of the work to be done need to be re-adjusted constantly to insure things are working before they are released.

Then when I landed - I saw this thread:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=10205

and my faith in humanity and all the hard work the really smart guys are doing at RED and Apple and Assimilate is restored. We are all working very hard, and doing our best to make good choices for both production and post... We are still in the early days, and things will continue to improve over time.


+ Ted
 
I can say that in my experience I have been quite successful with the RED Post workflow on the Mac. I don't cut on the PC so I am not as familiar but will say i know some people who are cutting right now on PC in Avid successfully. And, they are finishing successfully.
The one thing I do like about the RED Workflow are the options. If i need to get something out quickly (within a day or two) I will work with Proxies and if I have a little more time i may choose to work in Quicktime ProRes or ProResHQ in 2K or less in FCP. Either way I know I'm covered. Whether I'm coloring in Apple's Color or if its going to SCRATCH, either way, I have a way to get high quality footage in for editorial and out for CC and mastering. At the end of the day, my clients and I are happy! No, its not perfect, but you find ways around the things that aren't perfect yet. That's the way I've always had to work as an editor anyhow and no one here can tell me they don't have to troubleshoot issues on other platforms. Nothing is ever perfect/100% fail proof and you use your head to find workarounds, that goes the same for production as well whether your working with RED or another camera.

I have been testing other means on translating RED footage and from what I can say, there are some great things coming that will help improve the workflow tremendously! Enough said.

I don't see a point in telling you all the same things that many of us have said many times before again, but in reality, if you want to make it work for you and your needs you will need to use the best tools that are available to you.... Your enthusiasm, passion, and most important, your Brain!
 
Hello Ted,

Good to see you posting on the forum.

You are right that a lot of us are not posting about issues on the forum cause working with FCP and Scratch just works fine when you know what you're doing. And that's our case here at LocaRed in Paris. We have two features slated for the coming months in France to be shot on our Reds and they both plan on going through our FCP/Scratch workflow.

If anybody is dealing with some issues you are more than welcome to ask questions here, or in the workflow reduser section.

Between all the facilities present here there are quite a large number of knowledgeable people available to bring answers.

Keep up the good work and let us know when you stop by in Paris so that we can show you our new facility with the stereoscopic grading suite. We'll also take you out for drinks,

Arno
 
Its not so hard:)

Its not so hard:)

Ted,

The short answer is that it works!

The Apple/FCP solution doesn't really work for post houses whom have significant investment in Avid, Quantel, Autodesk. Obviously for indies it is great but unfortunately most of our clients want a more interactive grading/compositing experience.

So after a few days of frustration we arrived at an Avid, Pablo/Inferno workflow which is pretty much foolproof. Sure we had to write a bit of software but if you think it through its not so hard. Ok we have thrown a fair bit of resource to make it happen which some of the smaller operators wouldn't have but the bottom line is that it is reliable and functional.

Having said that the post wish list is still long but a bit of patience should see most problems resolved.

Firstly it would be nice if Avid could import the metadata without the need for the metacheater stage. And if Redline could do Avid files (OMF/MXF/DnXHD) that would be great. Then the import into Avid would be almost instant therefore saving a lot of time. This is the slowest part of the process currently.

Secondly native support of R3D will be great if everyone can get their decompressing and de-bayering image quality to an acceptable level. (Autodesk, Quantel etc). It would be nice to be able to simply do a network conform from an EDL directly from the R3D files resulting in a Redlog 10bit DPX sequence which the grading/compositing systems handle easily.

Some of the bugs in Redcine (eg 24 fps/25 fps) are annoying to say the least but we know that a lot of hard work is going in to rectify and improve these and other issues. It always amazes me that no matter what time I log onto Reduser (remembering that I am in a very different timezone) the number of Red Team people online and available to answer PMs or Posts is great.

Yes its fair to say that some people are being put off using the camera because of the perceived difficulties with the workflow. However from my limited interaction with the software and technical guys I for one have a fair degree of confidence in the Red team and, although the delays are frustrating, I also am prepared to wait until the team is happy to release the SDK when it is ready.

Many people on the forums have no idea how R&D works and the long term implications of releasing an unfinished product for both their own operations and third party developers.

Stick to your guns!!:biggrin: Don't let the criticism get you down.

Cheers

Michael
 
It's an unfortunate truth that horror stories tend to outnumber the success stories. -But it's also important that both sides of the coin are heard, so I believe it is positive for everyone to hear what the struggles of new tools and technology are alongside satisfied customers.
I encourage everyone to explore the facets of every new tool long before putting it to use on a serious investment like a film or commercial. I also encourage people to seek out demos or first-hand testimonials about the processes, rather than recycle negative hearsay from old posts, blogs or lunch meetings.
Ted is right; there are literally hundreds of ongoing Red projects world wide that are not only going smoothly, but are empowering production companies, post companies and independents in ways they rarely get to explore. For us at PlasterCITY, the most exciting element of the Red One workflow is its scalability. We have tailored dozens of workflows to match the budget, time and location parameters in ways that film and HD acquisition formats simply cannot deliver. The fact of the matter is, for progressives, the Red One is a pipe dream of customizable opportunities. -All tunable to meet just about any requirement both at the internal and facility levels. For traditionalists, the Red One is a cinema acquisition tool that melds smoothly into any of the existing tape-based or cross-platform NLE infrastructures.
Either way, the fun part is picking which world you are in and what your strengths and tools are. Then finding out which flavor of Red production and post production best fit your available resources. If you need help in doing so, there are numerous experts in the industry as well as Red customer support that can probably answer your questions as well as put out some of the fires you're hearing about.
The best advice I have for users out there is this: Don't over think it. The Red One is well engineered, it doesn't need additional engineering.

If you are having trouble connecting with Red experts, Read this:
http://www.capria.tv/category/workflow/

If you think Red's technology doesn't measure up to the big boys, Read this
http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/red.php

If you are rendering to view dailies, I am sorry. Read this
http://www.wonderhowto.com/software/other-apps-video/how-to-use-red-cine-shot-settings-151907/

If you think Red will not work with television, you are wrong. Read this
http://www.plastercitypost.com/red-overview.php

If you are rendering from RedAlert to edit your work, shame on you. Read this
http://www.red.com/cameras/workflow
 
Thanks for posting Michael - The Gary Adcock link seems to be broken though...

Graeme
 
Welcome on the board, Michael.

(I think that my drive is in your hands now, and I'm feeling sooo good).
:w00t:
 
We got camera #22, we tested it and we focused a lot of our attention to post workflow. That was Sept.
We then watched since we got the camera in Sept. but most people in our market did not start using it widely until Jan of this year... we watched as the cameras and the footage left the closed friendly environment of our close quarters and real crew and real directors started using it.

So here is a summary of comments and experiences - in some cases I have removed company or project names:

1. Our first job was a three day out of town - way out of town - and they wanted the red for only a few shots... as this was early days one of our people went with them... they ended up shooting about 20 times the amount they had estimated since they loved it so much.. I waited for problems in post as this was early days - not a phone call - just the REC709 was just great for their needs... and 2K (from the 4K ) was stunning. They just literally had no problems. It was still a bit slow - but they loved it.

2. A major fx house hired our camera to shoot tests in a remote location... this time one of our people could not go. They were worried by the fact that the camera took a beating - but the material was stunning - I saw it in their 2K projection suite- wow. There was a minor decoding issue - we got on to RED and while it was not on all shots - it was bug hunted and fixed. They are now buying their own camera. The DOP has since done heaps more and as of last night he still thinks the camera is stunning.

3. We shot 35mm side by side with RED. We graded it in Resolve - we saw some stuff - learn how to better transfer it and now the DOP and the facility are really happy - DOP now has his own RED.

4. A major director was thinking about a major film, I was giving a talk afterwards his team asked for a private session - I 'fitted' the camera to the director for shoulder mount work. Last I heard the feature is green lit and they have (or are buying ) 3 REDs.

5. A major TVC director ordered a bunch of REDs for his company out of Sydney. He was nervous about the post workflow so he flew us up before his first camera arrived. We spent a day teaching them Red workflow - in an email last night to a friend of his - which he CC'ed me he said:
" mike really helped me walk into RED land painlessly. I really was preparing myself of a techno overload, but instead it was easier than I could have ever hoped for." He now has 4 reds on order and is flying to NAB to buy a bunch of Scarlets.

6. The first feature shot with the camera here had problems in the first week... the cameras were brand new and there were some issues - but they were solved and the Colourist from the project was raving to a friend this week about the quality of the images they have graded when projected back from film (Weta did film out).

I could go on... time and time again we have had serious professionals come - access the camera and end up ordering cameras or buying more. Now we dont sell reds.. we dont sell red stuff - we only sometimes even rent our cameras.
Sure there is a learning curve at the post houses but there they WANT to buy things like Scratch since they need serious lifting tools to deal with the volume of RED stuff appearing - last week alone we spoke to 8 post houses re workflow - and went to one 3D stereo test and one Film out test. It does take time to adjust to the workflow - but these are all good people - who are learning and adjust to provide professional solutions.

I can honestly say I have not had one production that has hated RED. Not one. I have had people think it is not right for them - or not the look they want - but no one who has tested it and seen the results - have claimed it is crap or lacking a plan of attack, maybe they are and I have not met them.
I can only recount my personal experience, but this Red thing is a source of happiness in this office - we love it.

Do we want more things - you bet - would we like to see more workflow - you bet - but people here are making TVCs, filming features and doing projects and loving it. But to repeat yes there are issues - yes there are learning curves - but generally the mood in the trenches here is best paraphrased as - " Ok how do we make this work" - and NOT it is a pain to get good images.

One man's experience on the other side of the planet. :-) Your mileage may vary. Not valid in Ohio. :-)

mike
 
TedRed said:
Mark from Off Hollywood and Michael from Plaster City, and others in the community that are working on projects now - this is your call to clear up some of the misconceptions about what works well, what works OK, and what areas still need work. Each of you are using the FCP workflow options to their best viability in different ways, with different recommendations to your clients, and both have successful projects under your belts.
Click to expand...

Ted -

If you spent a little more time on Reduser - you would know that I "sound off" on a rather regular basis! But here's a short fast "tell it like it is" -

As you know, we work on multiple Red projects every single day. We don't edit with wrappers, except VERY occasionally on-set. We edit most of the projects we are involved with in 1K ProRes self-contained QTs - made from the wrappers in Compressor.

There are many reasons we avoid the "edit in wrappers" workflow - the most obvious is that we do lots of long-form work (features). With a 1K Prores offline - that gives us about 4T worth of 4K redcode on a single 500G drive. Then one can edit on ANY mac system, PPC or Intel, and get perfect RT performance - and the editor can take the whole feature home on a single drive if they want to cut at home. We conform in Scratch, which is instant.

We use Crimson Workflow for smaller REDCINE exports, but most of what we do is FCP offline in 1K, conform to .r3d files in Scratch, grade, export in full quality to whatever the client wants. We do LOTS of 1920 x 1080 and 2K DPX delivery, but we have done a bit of everything - including OpenEXR.

My biggest "downer" at the moment is that I avoid 4K 16x9 ONLY because I don't have working QT wrappers for fast transcode for off-line. I know it's coming, but it can't come soon enough. I HATE cropping 4K 2:1 to get 16x9 image simply because my off-line transcode is too slow. It kills me.

We continue to test several other applications and workflows and pretty much anything we can get our hands on - but Red FCP/Scratch is 100% solid and rocks every day at our shop.

I do sympathize with the PC users who do not have Scratch. But we can run the PC version of REDCINE without fail on our PC BOXX system - (we have tested REDCINE to DPX and then playback via Aja's MACHINA /Xena card with 1D LUTS - and it works GREAT.)

There is a LOT of incorrect information about working with RED in post - and sadly, there are many people NOT doing it "correctly". But alas, it is to be expected with new technology that has created so much excitement in the industry.

Bottom line, it works today. For us, every day. It's only going to get better.

Looking forward to:

16x9 4K QT wrapper support
trim .r3d command line
extract audio from .r3d command line
 
I'm in agreement with Mark. After all, he's leading the charge.

Ian Bloom's Crimson Workflow is a godsend to the budget-constrained doing small to mid-sized projects with Final Cut. For features or long-form work, SCRATCH is still the way for right now. Generating 1080p ProRes HQ clips right out of REDCINE after a preliminary color correction and then to ProRes workflow all the way has benefits for some projects too and I have achieved good results for broadcast HD, and excellent results for DVD and broadcast SD delivery.

Ultimately, we could really use (read: need) direct support for R3D or the ability to conform to or render from R3D files via Final Cut Studio, Compressor, Premiere, etc.. Not every RED user will be able to take on every project with Crimson Workflow, nor will they be able to push everything through a SCRATCH finish or process to DPX frames, work solely from the proxies or in a ProRes workflow, etc.. It's all about options. The more options, the better it will be for everyone. I realized this takes time and existing commitments must be honored. But broad industry support for REDCODE will make red post workflow accessible to many, just as the RED One has made a 35mm digital cinema camera system accessible to many. I know it's presumptuous of me, but I like to think that this would be RED's goal as well... To spread REDCODE across the industry as standard and universally supported acquisition format that nearly every NLE or post software is capable of using.

But that said, I think the focus on post workflow right now should be on getting REDCINE to be rock solid, 100% stable. There are some real issues there on both Windows and OSX. The QuickTime component needs help too. Those poor people stuck in a Windows-only workflow don't even have a QuickTime component... Serious optimization in REDCINE, RED Alert, REDLINE, the QT component, etc..

The Windows and Linux command-line tools are paramount.

Lots to do and I'm cheering you guys on. What we have now is a good start, I hope NAB brings the promise of a whole lot more.
 
Thanks for all the posts. It is good to hear I'm not living in a total fantasy world when I tell people there are many projects shooting RED and posting successfully.. I see them every single day here, and good that others are seeing and experiencing it as well. I look forward to seeing more folks let us know how they are using the tools, what they particularly like, and where they perceive the soft spots are that we need to apply more effort too (like 4k 16x9 support)

We will continue to learn, evolve and improve - that's what RED is all about.

+ Ted
 
Successful and evolving RED workflow

Successful and evolving RED workflow

Ted,

The point you make about RED continuing to 'learn, improve and evolve' is central to your success as a company and the RED filmmaking community as a whole.

We've already come a long way since those early days of us looking at those first incredible 4k images of Jim's 959s projected upside down in our DI theater ... that was only back in August of 2006 but it already seems like ancient history now.

I have no doubt you and Jim will continue to evolve RED in true Darwinian fashion .... only the fittest (and smartest) survive. Flexibility and adaptability are key traits for all of us in the RED community to nurture.

You might want to check out Mark's excellent thread on the many Indies already in production:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=10242

The fact that numerous Studio movies and Indies have already been shot and posted on RED and that finishing processes like DI-flex already provide an 'industrial strength workflow' to RED filmmakers means that the tools are already in place for the RED revolution to continue to grow in numbers and strength. The combination of RED RAW, Apple FCS and SCRATCH gives filmmakers the best of all worlds.

We're working on the 4k trailer of 'The Red Canvas' now ... as soon as it's finished we'll invite you back to Hollywood-DI ... be great to be able share it with the RED community at NAB.

Here's the link to the DI-flex article we wrote covering the post-production workflow for 'The Red Canvas':

http://www.hollywooddi.com/news.html

Safe journey home.

Neil

P.S. Did you like the photo of the three of us in the theater? ... we've sent it off to the publishers for the article we're doing on the successful RED Workflow. See you at NAB.
 
Offhollywood said:
Ted -

If you spent a little more time on Reduser - you would know that I "sound off" on a rather regular basis! But here's a short fast "tell it like it is" -

As you know, we work on multiple Red projects every single day. We don't edit with wrappers, except VERY occasionally on-set. We edit most of the projects we are involved with in 1K ProRes self-contained QTs - made from the wrappers in Compressor.

There are many reasons we avoid the "edit in wrappers" workflow - the most obvious is that we do lots of long-form work (features). With a 1K Prores offline - that gives us about 4T worth of 4K redcode on a single 500G drive. Then one can edit on ANY mac system, PPC or Intel, and get perfect RT performance - and the editor can take the whole feature home on a single drive if they want to cut at home. We conform in Scratch, which is instant.
Click to expand...

marks workflow pratices and suggestions are good imho - only thing which i want to add that scratch has to debayer and render -everything- when working in 4K.

there is the "opposite" workflow (which we implement for 4k projects) which starts -with- the debayer to 4k mastersequences, however that requires even more powerful hardware (as clipster) in the pipeline or cineform.

i think that as a rule of thumb the mastering format and the amount of collaboration in the workforce is the influencing the "better" workflow approach quite a bit
- for 4k mastering and monitoring, debayer first has more advantages, for 2K/1080 mastering and monitoring, debayer last offers good reasons.
- for networked postproduction (as attached VFX stations and cgi on large parts of the show) debayer first is pratically necessary, for sequential single seat (edit->color->graphics->out), debayer last saves time.

for the larger format projects (8K and up for signage and venue) we have in the pipeline, we choose the debayer first route, for fullfeature in 4K we are waiting for NAB but tend to debayer first, for commercials and doc-longform its native redcode or cineform.

i think when we will look back to these topics in some months, it will bring a smile to our faces - especially with many new 4K realtime hardwares and displays around the corner at NAB.

btw - does someone already have the "4K" mitsubishi 56 inch displays in use or saw it in action?
With 3840 x 2160 and 56 inch it sounds pretty much like an excellent client monitoring system, and with ~30.000 euro listprice its certainly an interesting option for red.
 
Offhollywood said:
I grade in REAL TIME in 2K FULL QUALITY (from 4K file)- I can go to tape WITHOUT render.
Click to expand...

Yeah, thats what i was pointing out:
4K Scratch renders,
2K it can do RT and display.

I am pointing that out because the whole only 2K i/o is one of the mayor shortcoming in scratch for us.
There are many 4K RT solution as DVS Clipster or Baselight.
Or the uncompressed 8K and 10K realtime playback solutions (which are nifty for signage, installation, festivals etc) from Iridas.

And this NAB, many new 4K RT (also debayer) solutions will be presented/introduced,
 
mikhail said:
What do you use for 4k i/o? Multiple SR decks?
Click to expand...

HDCAM SR is not realtime at 4K - you need the expansion board and it records slower than realtime. I never used SR as 4K recorder yet, the 4K option is pretty new and i am still -really- undecided if we really want to buy it.

For display, its all multilink HD-SDI (i.e. Sony SRX) or DVI (i.e. Mitsubishi). Be aware that several displays dont show -full- 4k, but "only" 3.8K, as they use 4 HD-panels.

diskrecorders, as keisoku giken, dvs systems (clipster etc) use hd-sdi.

iridas FC venue which goes up to -ill- resolutions in uncompressed uses HD-SDI outputs as well.

for low price 4k (or 3.8K) playback, the como mantis is recommendable.
Its only ~9.000 and plays out synchronised 4 * HD, mpeg2 based.
It has component interfaces :) i think its funny to have 3.8K via component.
 
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