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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED: Why bother making a "fixed" lens Scarlet?

Maybe for auto focus also? (now I see that was mentioned before)
 
Hardlined Broadcast EFP/ENG Live View A Camera! :w00t:
 
Okay, I apologize if this question seems obvious, I am a post guy who just LOVES the concept of the Red cameras and am in the process of talking the next project I am working on into investing in Red cameras.

Now, my question is, I was looking at the Scarlet Cinema, but I am confused about the lens. I only see prime lenses on their site. Do you think there would be an adapter to allow the use of other lenses for this camera, like you can get for the Red One?

The reason I ask, I like my Nikkor lens on my D90. When I shoot video on my D90 it looks great, WAY better than the HVX we have. The problem, the D90 suffers from SO MANY limitations that its mostly useless. Any fast movements get SERIOUS Jello and there are a ton of other things. That said, the image looks beautiful from it.

I looked at the fixed lens, but I don't see a lot of details on it. I'm also afraid of not being able to uses zoom lenses with adjustable F stop as I really like getting the great depth of field shots a say pro-sumer video camera can not do. Also, if I referred to anything with the wrong usage of terminology, again, I apologize. If these were audio questions I'd be golden, but with cameras and video, I am VERY VERY much on the "look shiny" phase for the most part.

Thoughts?
 
Well, the Nikon uses a DX Chip as the Sensor, which is slightly smaller than S35 I think. The Scarlets 2/3" is way smaller. Near to 16mm. So you'd need a 16mm Lens for the Scarlet to work right. The Nikon ones produce a way to big picture and you'd only be able to capture a part of it. As it would probably be doable a normal 50mm Lens would become a Tele and a fisheye, with luck a normal wide lens.

Another way would be a 35mm Adapter which would mean light lost. But then the Lenses should work fine for you. Maybe that is the route to go. But if you think about the Cost for this 35mm adapter, the Railsystem to mount cam and Adapter on, ... the S35 should be worth another thought. It's 7000$, but you don't have to deal with 35mm adapters, Railsystem Groundglasses, power for the vibration of the GroundGlasses...
But that's something you have to argue with you and your Bank ;-)

George
 
Thanks, that makes a lot more sense now as a lot of these things I am just not aware of and I certainly don't want to take this post off topic. I'll definitely be looking at the S35 as well, as that system it looks will still come in a lot less expensive at the end of the day compared to the Red One (and I am not dismissing the Red One, we'd be glad to use that as well). It's just with the price of the S35 and all the parts, we could probably get two of them no problem.

I'm pushing them to go Red to eliminate having to use add on adapters. I used an HVX camera with a rail system and it was bulky, and seemed more of a pain than anything else. It shot great footage, don't get me wrong, but on set we are looking for as few variables as possible in having to deal with things for efficiency! :) Which I am sure everyone is!
 
So many options! Since we aren't shooting till probably the end of the summer we'll just wait and see what is available then from Red. We may still end up getting a Red ONE since I think the work done with that camera on Sanctuary is really nice (even if the show isn't that great).

For now I just ordered an HV30 from Canon to play around with. The cost is almost nothing and I am building the 35mm adapter for it more for a learning exercise. When more information comes out on the S35 version of the Scarlet, I'll hopefully be more knowledgeable! :)

Is there any way to just create some sort of lens that goes between a larger format lens and the sensor? I know this would make the barrel longer and also reduce light I am sure, but is this an option?
 
Rick Burnett said:
Is there any way to just create some sort of lens that goes between a larger format lens and the sensor? I know this would make the barrel longer and also reduce light I am sure, but is this an option?
Click to expand...

Do you mean a lens between the sensor and the groundglass (35mm adaptor) or a lens between the lens and the sensor? (Which doesn't make that much sense :huh: )
 
I'm skeptical about the fixed lens Scarlet as well...

When you put a zoom lens on a camera you will undoubtedly increase the depth of focus, and the wider the zoom range the worse it gets. Next to proper 3 point lighting, DoF is the biggest differentiator between the film and video 'look'. Instead of a single do-it-all lens it would be a more cinema capable camera with three lenses: A relatively tight wide zoom, a medium prime appropriate for a medium two shot, and a telephoto zoom. Put it on a proprietary mount that makes it all play together.

Most camcorders mount a flexible zoom because they sell many more units to the ENG market than the rest of the markets combined. Will a fixed lens Scarlet work better here? I doubt it as both Sony and Panasonic have products out that can go from shooting directly to editing at up to 1080 content. A news company will generally select a brand as a standard and build out the infrastructure to support it. I doubt Red will make inroads here.

So you are left with a camera that cannot make the cinema image and does not have the market share or workflow capabilities as the established ENG competition. I have no doubt they'll sell to a few of the current RED client base, but I have the feeling that many will be disappointed once the footage starts to come out.

I hope I'm wrong...

Bob
 
Bob Gruen said:
When you put a zoom lens on a camera you will undoubtedly increase the depth of focus, and the wider the zoom range the worse it gets. Next to proper 3 point lighting, DoF is the biggest differentiator between the film and video 'look'.
Click to expand...

Hi,

I don't understand why a zoom lens will increase depth of field?

16mm film has very similar DOF to 2/3 inch but retains a film look, many 35mm films have been shot with deep focus even to the extent of multi passes to achieve the effect.

Benjamin Button, shot on 2/3 video looks pretty filmic to me.

Best,

Stephen
 
Bob Gruen said:
When you put a zoom lens on a camera you will undoubtedly increase the depth of focus, and the wider the zoom range the worse it gets. Next to proper 3 point lighting, DoF is the biggest differentiator between the film and video 'look'. Instead of a single do-it-all lens it would be a more cinema capable camera with three lenses: A relatively tight wide zoom, a medium prime appropriate for a medium two shot, and a telephoto zoom. Put it on a proprietary mount that makes it all play together.

Most camcorders mount a flexible zoom because they sell many more units to the ENG market than the rest of the markets combined. Will a fixed lens Scarlet work better here? I doubt it as both Sony and Panasonic have products out that can go from shooting directly to editing at up to 1080 content. A news company will generally select a brand as a standard and build out the infrastructure to support it. I doubt Red will make inroads here.

So you are left with a camera that cannot make the cinema image and does not have the market share or workflow capabilities as the established ENG competition. I have no doubt they'll sell to a few of the current RED client base, but I have the feeling that many will be disappointed once the footage starts to come out.

I hope I'm wrong...

Bob
Click to expand...

yes Bob, thankfully you are wrong. Depth of field is a characteristic of focal length and aperture. Whether it's a zoom or prime lens has no bearing on depth of field.

Also I and tens of thousands of others will be buying this model. For action sports there simply isn't anything else that comes close to what this is capable of and you'd be surprised at how many people spend $5000-10,000 to capture skateboarding, surfing, snowboarding, and other similar sports.
 
To answer my earlier question about using a Nikon lens from my D90 with the Red S35, it wouldn't make any sense anyways. For whatever reason, I happened to forget that it has no aperture control on the lens, so it would be useless. Since I am buying SLR prime lenses to use with my D90, these should work fine since they are designed for 35mm with the red.

What I don't see happening is being able to use the 35mm lens with the 2/3 because I'd lose a lot of what was coming in being cropped from the sensor size.

When I mentioned changing the image size, I was thinking along the lines of how an achromat is used in the HV30 DIY 35mm adapter kit to change the size of the image input to the camera. I didn't know if such a thing existed for the opposite direction, meaning to scale down the image. Like I said, I am certainly playing catch up to a lot of image related technology! :)
 
Stephen Williams said:
16mm film has very similar DOF to 2/3 inch but retains a film look, many 35mm films have been shot with deep focus even to the extent of multi passes to achieve the effect.
Click to expand...

Quite. Coming from a background of working on many super-16mm films, this is all I need for the kinds of stories I want to shoot any my current ability level.

Speed and simplicity are very important to me, so things like the constant-T of the fixed lens are a big asset, since they reduce lighting complexity. Similarly, I am willing to trade off some visual flexibility that is available with prime lenses for time saved in lens changes, sensor cleaning, and suchlike.

I assume that the Scarlet will need to be 'learned' in order to get the best out of it, but also that it will be well-engineered in terms of things like the focus ring or whatever mechanism they use. I know I will have to adapt to this camera a bit. The only big questions for me right now are the degree of dynamic range (the better it is, the less lighting I have to worry about) and how wide the fixed lens will go. If it is equivalent to a 24mm lens on a 35mm rig or close to it, I think I will be very happy - though I hope the lens will be a standard size to allow screw-on filters or affordable wide angle extenders.

Anyway, the nice thing is that if this camera does not meet your needs, you have many other options.
 
wardovision said:
yes Bob, thankfully you are wrong. Depth of field is a characteristic of focal length and aperture. Whether it's a zoom or prime lens has no bearing on depth of field.
Click to expand...
True, except that the fixed Scarlet is T2.4 and the mini primes are around T1.5, which is over 1 stop faster, which means a bit shallower DOF.
 
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