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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Red vs Genesis vs Alexa

sandro-bachmann said:
Why are we comparing Genesis/Alexa vs. RED ?
Genesis and Alexa are 1080P Video Cameras right?
Red is a 4 to 5K - RAW capturing Cinema Camera right?
So RED is the way better Camera, well thats what i thought so far?
those cameras are not the same Tools right?
and thats why, not playing in the same league?
Click to expand...

answer:

Graeme Nattress said:
resolution is a necessary, but not sufficient aspect of image quality
Click to expand...
 
Kemalettin Sert said:
so in your statement Godzilla cam waaaaaaaaaay better than Red right? cuz its 8K... :)
Click to expand...

i never saw fottage from Godzilla, if its capturing Raw images at 8k ?
it could be better:coolgleamA: why not?

for me, the big difference is RAW, combined with high resolution.

high resolution, down samplet footage, looks always better, then shooting 1080P, when going for 1080P delivery. its the same with film 35mm vs 16mm
 
The NHK demo footage I've seen is indeed very high resolution, but has a much more video aesthetic than the RED, or of the better digital cinema cameras available.

Graeme
 
In 10 years, we'll be 10 years forwards...
 
Not to mention, If I was to put my money on anything it would be that when Red releases the Epic 645 it will be the first truly usable 8k+ digital cinema camera. For starters it won't have a refrigerator to lug around, it will actually be 9K, it will be affordable and I am sure they will have the "feel" correct and not video like.
 
I think we're getting a really good handle on digital cinema feel and aesthetic, not that I don't keep trying out new ideas practically every week in an attempt to improve one aspect or another. That's the other benefit of RAW - it's a R&D playground of opportunities.

Graeme
 
Godzilla = 3 x epics, 1 xR, 1xG, 1x B sensors, prism and each offset 1 pixel.
Packaged in a similar size camera body but with no refrigerator.

Think of sensor offset as a bayer pattern formed by off setting pixels on three RGB sensors via a prism, rather than offsetting colour sensitive pixels on a single sensor.

Using this notion, 3x epics can be said to be at least 10k?
Not suggesting that using prisms is the way forward, but am pointing out that the Epic with not too much more development would be a years ahead of what even a well funded, custom, non commercial research project camera can deliver.



Mike Brennan
 
I think the NHK uses 4 sensors on a prism, with two greens, a red and a blue.

Graeme
 
I picked up the literature at NAB a while back, but darn if I would know where to find it!

Graeme
 
Adam J McKay said:
Where as on the RED, I am still trying to figure out the workflow. Redecine took me quite a while to figure out and trans coding is a bugger without a rocket card. I did however get to do a quick test with Adobe CS5 and that was a treat, as it is just drag and drop. I love the flexibility of the RAW footage as well
Click to expand...

The thing with RAW is that it shouldn't be any harder than RGB. If you don't need to adjust the image you should be able to load a RAW file just like a normal RGB file.

Unfortunately things are always unnecessarily complicated initially. ProRes hides a lot of the complexity from you as well. You don't worry about it being 4:2:2 even though behind the scenes the computer is doing some pretty unintuitive operations.

Similarly as far as the user is concerned RAW should just be a video like any other--but with more flexibility when needed. Still RAW is getting there, I can open a CR2 file in windows without Photoshop or anything else and it'll get a thumbnail just like any other image.
 
Gavin Greenwalt said:
.... Still RAW is getting there, I can open a CR2 file in windows without Photoshop or anything else and it'll get a thumbnail just like any other image.
Click to expand...
Gavin, in the CR2 case the file holds a full resolution copy of the JPG image (whether or not you choose to shoot JPG alongside RAW). This is what's partly responsible for the larger file size of recent Canon cameras' RAW files (resolution increases notwithstanding). This iws also why it's easy to get thumbnails etc from CR2 files without specific file format support.

There are tools to extract the JPG from the CR2 file if CF card space is at a premium but you like to shoot both simultaneously. Try it out.

HTH

Paul :)
 
From my basic understanding, and please correct me if I'm wrong, the current RED MX sensor samples at 14 bit per pixel.

The Genesis, which uses a 3 ccd sensor, RGB, samples at 10 bit log, which equates to 30 bits per pixel.

But the RED's sensor is CMOS, so has a Bayer filter, which separates the RGB, so to compare the two is misleading, but if you were to compare spec for spec it would be the 30 bits vs the 14 bits.... Am I correct, or is this more myths, I read this info on this link

http://rcjohnso.com/REDFACTS.html
 
Tim, that's a very interesting 1st post for you. That article is wrong. If you're interested in more details, this forum and my posts are the ones to read.

Graeme
 
I had to start somewhere., post something

And right now am just trying to understand all the numbers and info out there. So any pointings in the right direction is much appreciated.

Many Thanks
 
Post 6# (http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?52284-Red-vs-Genesis-vs-Alexa&p=683625&viewfull=1#post683625) on this very thread is a good place to start. It shows that the F35 / Genesis doesn't produce the image you'd think it'd produce if that article was in any way correct. Given that evidence, you can see any assumption in that article is also incorrect, and then can view the list of movies shot on RED Cameras compared to the F35/Genesis and see that if that article was in any way true, the RED list would be rather short and not contain any prestigious movies, but as we know that is not the case.

So we have the images don't agree with that article,
The professionals that choose to use RED don't agree with that article,
The science doesn't agree with that article.

And then we have Arri, Aaton using a similar approach to RED with large Bayer pattern CMOS sensors, so they don't agree with that article either. And now Sony themselves have decided to base their F65 on guess what - a large format bayer CMOS, albeit rotated 45 degrees so that they can pretend it's not really bayer when it is because they've spent so much energy over the years trashing bayer while simultaneously using it in their high end digital stills cameras....

The prosecution rests it's case.

Graeme
 
Paul Leeming said:
Gavin, in the CR2 case the file holds a full resolution copy of the JPG image (whether or not you choose to shoot JPG alongside RAW). This is what's partly responsible for the larger file size of recent Canon cameras' RAW files (resolution increases notwithstanding). This iws also why it's easy to get thumbnails etc from CR2 files without specific file format support.
Click to expand...

Nikon do the same in their NEF files.
 
Tim Watson said:
From my basic understanding, and please correct me if I'm wrong, the current RED MX sensor samples at 14 bit per pixel. The Genesis, which uses a 3 ccd sensor, RGB, samples at 10 bit log, which equates to 30 bits per pixel.
Click to expand...
This was debated a lot when this article first appeared, about 3 or 4 years ago. Don't forget that the Genesis typically shoots on HDCam-SR, which is a compressed 10-bit format.

It's fair to say there's more than numbers when it comes to absolute picture quality. Genesis, Alexa, Red, Sony, even the lowly Canon 5D can all make decent pictures under optimum conditions, with good lighting and good color correction. It's pretty clear that the industry is moving towards 4K capture for all major productions, but the "K" alone doesn't guarantee the picture quality. I've always felt it's more about the dynamic range, but the Red is more than capable of handling that.
 
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