Red Vs Dalsa target clientel

[Johnny Johnson]

I had a little chat with a Dalsa Rep over the weekend, and thought I would put his opinion in the public arena to hear what the response might be.

"Red does not suit the same clientel as Dalsa"

Basically his theory was that Red was too unreliable for large studio shoots and serious pictures. The bulky Dalsa produces pretty 4k images, and is "completely reliable" in shooting situations. Clearly an opinion, and he got quite agitated about it all too for that matter.

Opinions?

 

[Brent J. Craig]

Is a camera with a rack of hard drives attached aimed at the same clientel as a handholdable one recording to compactflash? Nope.

Can you shoot features on either one? Yup.

Which one is easier to deal with on set...?

 

[Chris Nuzzaco]

One big thing to consider is that Red is shooting REDCODE RAW, Dalsa is just plain RAW, and there is a big difference between the two especially with regard to how bulky the camera needs to be....

I think they are just annoyed that they didn't think about creating a Redcode style option for their camera, to help make it less bulky. Lots of DPs just think its too big. I kind of find that ironic, because lots of DPs would jump at the chance to shoot IMAX, but as far as I know, thats even bigger and more cumbersome than Dalsa, especially the 3D cams!

Personally, I'd love to try shooting with it. Have you seen their images full size? Pretty nice stuff man...

 

[Jan Reiff]

there are many sins in life, ask david fincher.
one of them is envy, ...

dalsa is great, but red is revolutionary and great.

that´s the difference.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

someone from arri said something like

they dont aim for the clients red do.
In a feature where the Leadactor earns something like $$$$$$ per day, it doesnt matter, that the D20 costs 2000 €/day, it matters that it works...

-----this was probably the guys opinion, not arris.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Same old adage - use the tools that best suit the project.

There's room for a few in this arena, and competition is always good. But at the end of the day, you choose based on the best combination of quality, efficiency, value, etc.

 

[Jason Laramy]

The Dalsa is more of a proof of concept than anything else - you really wouldn't want to shoot anything with it.

The 4k Phantom put a nail in Dalsa's coffin by doing everything they did much better - Then Red came along and put that coffin 3 feet in the hole.

They did a good job proving that 4k is real- but man o man- you guys think RED's workflow has issues?

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

What annoys them is that this is a TEMPORARY situation. Think about it, RED is still in a design phase. 75% there in camera, and 50% there in post.

But.. Where will RED be in 6 months? It's realiability will be three times what it is now, and third party support will be amazing.

RED has a 2 year jump in this market with this kind of technology.

Dalsa, and ARRI are both annoyed because the couter-arguement they are using today, won't work a whole lot longer.. Then they will be in deep Kim-See.



Jay

 

[Jason Laramy]

Plus - I can either rent a Dalsa for 4 days - or with the same fee - buy a RED ONE; it's Not rocket science.

 

[I Bloom]

The Concord seemed like a really reliable airplane. Until one crashed and we realized people had barely been flying them.

Nice try Dalsa. But you are also untested and so is your workflow.

IBloom

 

[Ketch Rossi]

My amble opinion and the way I see it, (based on personal research and third party experiences).

Just over two years ago I gained a trust of a small group to invest $10 Mil. in one of my stories, I immediately started research for the equipment that would best fit the shooting style for the way I wanted to tell the story as Writer/Director, so I set out to call just about every one I knew and didn't, I joined various forums, in the Cinematography field, asked away experiences, opinions and suggestions, plus I personally visited every rental house in sight to get a fill of the gear and learn as much as possible about it.

After several months I found my self in the hospital about to get a leg amputated, the $10 Mll. deal was gone, and so was my leg ... just about, together with my hopes to ever find the strength to ever make movies.


Then I found out about RED on DVXUSER, and something happened, I was inspired by a tool, an object, nothing more, but nonetheless that give me something to read about and chat about, and something to look forward to, so I made a call to my layer and got and advance (from the case for which I was in the hospital) and I made my first reservation for 3FOURTY9.


The reason I'm writing about this is to make, or try, people understand that RED can not be compared to any other camera on the market for the simple reason that this is not just a camera, this was a mission impossible accomplished, this is a Beta camera that is already been making Movies and in the hands of people like Peter Jackson, which has probably 10 of them.

Some get very personal about the tool they choose for their work, I know I do, the right tool is half the job, and is fantastic to have choices.

Unfortunately when such a tool like RED, a baby, in this industry, comes to rival the veterans of this industry, you are bound to get friction, resistance, not only because is a new camera, from a former sunglasses manufacturer, (absolutely no offense intended here, Jim), but also because is Digital.

I believe that to each is own, and each should have the choice to get what He/She fills is right for their project, with out having to encounter all the nonsense related BLA BLA BLA!

Dalsa is a fantastic camera, and their lenses are just as fantastic, no matter the size, the cost, and the related workflow, both on set and in post, the Dalsa will continue to have its clients no doubt, and so it will the D20.


RED is a revolution, but it is a very young camera, and it is normal for many to still doubt the functions an capacity of continuity on any set, the camera still has several bugs which are worked on avery day, and it is getting better and better, it has a PL standard mount besides all the other possibilities (of which no one in big budget films is interested in) but so the fact is that RED can be used with the best the world has to offer in PL lenses , like the Arri/Zeiss MP's, and it is a 4K camera with tremendous high quality image (which is also getting better and better still), so for many others the choice is clear, RED is the way to go, for more then one reason, cost been the last on any big budget film and the first on any Indie low budget film.

I too continue to find the same friction about my intention to use RED for my projects, small or large, some because of the argument that there is no good number of great DP's and Cameramen, Operators and Editors, which are familiar with RED and all its pluses and mines, and this alone will work against any project shot on RED, this is what I get from time to time when talking to veterans in the industry, which have and are working in Big budget movies.


For me the choice was clear from the day I made the reservation.


So comparisons can, and will, be made every day for years to come, I'm a RED shooter (well soon in off) and will be so for a looong time to come, I'm sure of it, so I'll continue to discuss the why and because, with any other camera user or manufacturer or rental house, but that will come soon to a end, a very near end, were RED will have fully shot several features and have proven it self, leaving no doubts in any field of its capacity and proven on field reliability.


Till then, (and probably still after, but not as much) RED will get tone of S#@# from the strong opposition.


This is similar to the same opposition that "DIGITAL vs. FILM" gets, there are decades of investment in the Film industry based on "Film" and the investment is in the Billions of $, so all those deeply involved in the Celluloid process, are bound and must fight against that which brings a serious threat to their business, and they have the right to do so, will they stop the evolution and revolution, NO, they will not, but they will sure do their best to slow it down.

Ciao

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

someone from arri said something like

they dont aim for the clients red do.
In a feature where the Leadactor earns something like $$$$$$ per day, it doesnt matter, that the D20 costs 2000 €/day, it matters that it works...

-----this was probably the guys opinion, not arris.

In this regard he was right. High budget productions don't have to care much about camera rental costs. It't the directors artistic choice which camera he wants to use.

I haven't shot with a Dalsa or D20 yet but for the work I do 35mm is always the cheaper and more satisfying solution. This changes now.

Hans

 

[Ariana]

I'd never heard of Dalsa until today. Are there any in Europe?
I googled around and couldn't find any but I did find this interesting tidbit:


http://www.garywill.com/blog/2008/03/waterloo-tech-digest-march-4-2008.html

Dalsa's management information circular shows that Savaas Chamberlain received a $175,000 bonus last year "in recognition of his service as CEO." He is now CTO, having passed the chief executive reins to Brian Doody. However, neither of them collected the largest base salary at the company last year. That spot went to digital cinema president Rob Hummel, who received $400,000 in salary. Chamberlain's total compensation of $512,000 still topped the company's payroll.

Wow, they must be making tons of studio pictures with such high salaries!

 

[reality]

There was some speculation about this on CML today also.
The new board is probably going to kill Dalsa's cinema division.
What a shame. Probably because of Red too.

 

[Andrew McCarrick]

I'd never heard of Dalsa until today. Are there any in Europe?
I googled around and couldn't find any but I did find this interesting tidbit:


http://www.garywill.com/blog/2008/03/waterloo-tech-digest-march-4-2008.html



Wow, they must be making tons of studio pictures with such high salaries!

Dalsa doesn't just make cameras.... they make sensors for almost every industry. The make sensors for line assembly, medical equipment, ect. so I'm expecting they're making the most money of their sensor manufacturing, not the Origin II/Evolution.

This is just speculation, but I wouldn't be suprised if Dalsa (not the Digital Cinemea Division) made the sensor for Red.

Is a camera with a rack of hard drives attached aimed at the same clientel as a handholdable one recording to compactflash? Nope.

Not ture, Dalsa has an on board flash recorder. So you could go handheld, steadicam, dolly, jib, ect. without be tethered.

 

[Jason Laramy]

Wow, they must be making tons of studio pictures with such high salaries!

Dalsa - someone please correct me if I am wrong - has never shot a feature yet in its 5 year history - except a made-for-TV movie a couple months ago - that I heard Dalsa gave cameras to for free just to make unhappy shareholders happy again.

Dalsa makes a very impressive image - but it is not a practical camera or workflow - even after half a decade of development.

 

[Andrew McCarrick]

Dalsa makes a very impressive image - but it is not a practical camera or workflow - even after half a decade of development.

It's actually a very practical workflow. Uncompressed 4k straight to DPX files.... you can transcode those into MXF files (with metadata) for Avid, then you move on into an uncompressed 4k editor for your online.... what's not practical about that?

The only downside to the Dalsa cameras at all, is they cost $3000 a day to rent.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Handheld on a Dalsa? Are you a weightlifter in your spare time? When I was younger I had a camera nightmare about a Ampex 2" Quad "camcorder", which I picked up, put on my shoulder, and fell over backwards....

Graeme

 

[Andrew McCarrick]

Handheld on a Dalsa? Are you a weightlifter in your spare time? When I was younger I had a camera nightmare about a Ampex 2" Quad "camcorder", which I picked up, put on my shoulder, and fell over backwards....

Graeme

Well I never said handheld was practical... (then again, I never said it wasn't) but it is possible, with the on-board recorder. The newer Evolution camera should be bareable handheld.

 

[reality]

Not ture, Dalsa has an on board flash recorder. So you could go handheld, steadicam, dolly, jib, ect. without be tethered.

Ha ha. The camera weighs like 40 lbs once you have everything on it and its about the size of a big pc tower. I ran into a steadicam op who had flown one and said he could do at most 5 min before it got unbareable.

No high speed option either and 400MBs just to record 24p.

It literally was a dinosaur the minute RED one came out.