Red User shooting 35mm for the first time!

[Sam Goldwater]

Hey all,

I've been shooting on Scarlet as DOP on short fiction and doc projects for the last 18 months since I've had the body (Reel here: RED/DSLR split http://samgoldwater.com/) - the latitude still blows me away, but I've got a fiction project coming up where I have the opportunity to shoot 2 perf 35.

This thread isn't about the relative benefits (or not) of shooting on film - the point is this'll be my first time shooting physical film of any kind and I could really do with some advice from some experienced users who've shot plenty of 35mm (particularly 2 perf) and could throw out some pointers to a through-and-through digital boy who appreciates that, while emulsion is a just a recording format, there are some considerations besides the use of a light meter to getting good material out of physical film. Any youtube links, pitfalls, horror stories, basic errors, or prior threads (searched, couldn't find anything specific) would be massively helpful!

Thanks all!

 

[Marc Wielage]

Overexpose 1/2 a stop. Expose for the lowlights and let the highlights blow out (the opposite of digital). And shoot tests first.

 

[Dylan Macleod CSC]

Wow. Lucky you! I miss film. You are in for a challenge. It took me years to understand how to relate what I wanted something to look like in to an image on film. I spent the early years testing - making mistakes and testing more. Things would often turn out well - but maybe not what I expected. I finally reached a comfort level where I could confidently know what I was going to get. I can't imagine the reverse process of only knowing digital - and then having to shoot film. The advantage of digital is "what you see is what you get". So in a way - it's easy. With film it is hard to translate what's in your head to what will end up on the screen without intimate knowledge of film stocks, processing, DI and how your lighting relates to all that. In addition - you can't rely on the monitor image. Especially coming from digital - you will be deceived by it. All I can say is test as much as possible. Make sure you are confident with a light meter. In my early days I actually did bracketed tests (in 1/3 increments) and cut out frames to put in slides. I could reference these slides on set and have an instant reminder of what "2 stops under" looks like. As Marc said - overexpose! It is hard to lose information in the highlights on film and when you do - it looks nice as it rolls off. As he mentioned - the opposite of digital. Enjoy!

 

[George Butterfield]

Get a good 1st AC and/or loader and listen to what they have to say, check the gate .... Hope that the Actors are prepared, (but that's the Producers problem) ...

 

[Satsuki Murashige]

Buy a good light meter if you haven't already, and have it calibrated. Get a manual 35mm stills camera and practice making exposures with your light meter and different film stocks. I found a spot meter to be very helpful in learning to visualize what +/- 1, 2, 3, 4 stops will look like.

Shoot an over/under-exposure test with every film stock you will be shooting with. To do this, you would set up and light a scene with a black reference, white reference, an 18% grey card, a color chart, and several different skin tones. Light it correctly according to the film stock's recommended EI/ISO/ASA and then shoot bracketed exposures (-4, -3, -2, 1, N, +1, +2, +3, +4). It helps if you shoot the normal exposure first, and again between the under and over shots. Then when you have the film telecined of scanned, have the post facility do two passes on the negative: one, uncorrected so you can see what under and over exposed footage looks like for creative effect; two, each shot corrected to match the normal exposure so you can see how much latitude you have to correct an exposure mistake.

Repeat this process for every film stock and every lab process combination (push, pull, bleach bypass, ENR, etc) that you will use.

You will probably notice that the +1 stop shot looks less grainy and richer in color than the normal exposure, which is why others are recommending that you intentionally overexpose the negative by 1/2-1 stop. On the other hand, -1 on some stocks has a very delicate pastel look which can be beautiful. Most stocks fall apart when underexposed -2 or more, as you can see if you do this test. The late Harris Savides ASC made great use of deliberate under exposure, apparently scaring some of his AC's into thinking they'd be fired when the footage came back from the lab!

If you want to learn more about shooting celluloid, I would recommend heading over to the cinematography.com forum, there are a lot of helpful posts in the archives there.

 

[Shane Kelly]

First off, get the best AC that you can, one that knows film.
Get a good light meter and learn how to calculate loss of stop using ND or 85 (color correction) filters -you won't see it on the monitor.
As others have said - test as much as you can and expose for the shadows.
learn to trust you eyes as you won't have a monitor to look at.
don't be afraid - film is pretty forgiving as long as you are in the ballpark.

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

I have no advice that is relevant to your situation. However, I do have some opinions which may or may not be helpful.

- Use the same stock for the whole production. Why shoot 50ASA outdoors but 500ASA indoors? What would be the point of that? Be consistent.

- Film can have a lot of different looks, but they all have a certain something in common. If you see a film or TV show that is shot on film that you like, try to find out why a given film stock was used.

- Some productions shot on film which look especially beautiful: Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire; Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy; Blade Runner. Watch as many Kubrick films as you can. Did you know that all footage in Eyes Wide Shut was pushed by two stops?

I wish I could say I was in your position. You lucky bum. I'm sure it will go well and the mistakes you make will not be significant. Measure twice, cut once!

 

[Shane Kelly]

I have to disagree with Karim's advice on shooting the same stock indoors and out. Yes you can do it but if you shoot a 500 speed stock outdoors on a sunny day with heavy ND it will be very hard to see anything in the video tap and quite hard to see in the viewfinder. If you shoot panavision this is not as much of a concern as you can use gel filters behind the lens but you do need to have an ac who knows what she's doing.
One thing that I thought of was that you used to be able to get movie stocks loaded into a 35mm canister, if this can still be done, it would be a great way to test your stocks and exposure method. Of course you'd have to find a 35mm stills camera.

 

[Michael Lindsay]

Take my advice with the knowledge that I haven't shot film in 6 years and the world has moved on...

with a great assistant it is easier than you may think...

2 perf is more prone to visable stuff in the gate isssues

if you are digtial oriented you may want to 'tend' to over expose a little (I always over exposed all studio stuff by 1 stop)

I have had lab issues in the days that film was common so I may want to investage and check options.

enjoy!...

 

[Christopher Mills]

+1 on calibrated meter... and an experienced AC..
After testing with stills, believe the meter and the measuring tape.

What I miss about film (though I did shoot some b&w last year) is that it is relatively simple to get dark areas to be black.

I actually went full circle, and used my Red to film the projected film for the final look of my project.

SPend the money to supervise your film to digital transfer

 

[Sam Goldwater]

Updates!

Thanks for everyone's input so far, I'll get to Arri to do some tests as soon as they'll let me.

The short is a fairly even split between some fairly tight location interiors, exterior busy market scenes and some large dance studio/performance interiors. The budget's tight as usual, probably no generator so our biggest fixtures would be M18s or Joker 1600s. For the interiors I figured setting mostly toppy, soft kino fixtures and the joker through windows where possible depending on day/night.

I'm leaning towards shooting on a Arri 235 because it's light and quiet, Mk3 super speeds because they're small and fast and Vision3 500T 5219 with an 80A permanently in the box. From what I've read/seen 5219 can be pushed a stop and still holds good contrast and definition.

So! Please correct me if I'm wrong - 500ASA, down two stops for the blue filter, 125ASA, pushed one stop - 250. I need lighting power for at least T2 at 250ASA for my base exposure in all scenes. Does that work out?

 

[Stephen Williams]

Updates!

Thanks for everyone's input so far, I'll get to Arri to do some tests as soon as they'll let me.

The short is a fairly even split between some fairly tight location interiors, exterior busy market scenes and some large dance studio/performance interiors. The budget's tight as usual, probably no generator so our biggest fixtures would be M18s or Joker 1600s. For the interiors I figured setting mostly toppy, soft kino fixtures and the joker through windows where possible depending on day/night.

I'm leaning towards shooting on a Arri 235 because it's light and quiet, Mk3 super speeds because they're small and fast and Vision3 500T 2019 with an 80A permanently in the box. From what I've read/seen 2019 can be pushed a stop and still holds good contrast and definition.

So! Please correct me if I'm wrong - 500ASA, down two stops for the blue filter, 125ASA, pushed one stop - 250. I need lighting power for at least T2 at 250ASA for my base exposure in all scenes. Does that work out?

I would use half correction 81 & not push the stop or use an LLD filter & rate the film at 320 ASA

BTW many people stopped using correction filters a long time ago, so you should test & see if you like it.

 

[Sam Goldwater]

So then if I'm bolstering daylight (which I expect I often will be) I'd 1/2 CTO the 5600 fixtures? Doesn't that just leave you in the same place? If people generally stopped using correction filters what does everyone do now when shooting 5219?

 

[Stephen Williams]

So then if I'm bolstering daylight (which I expect I often will be) I'd 1/2 CTO the 5600 fixtures? Doesn't that just leave you in the same place? If people generally stopped using correction filters what does everyone do now when shooting 5219?

Lots of people do nothing........Film is an art you can often forget the science & technical theory. Stanley Kubrick did nothing on Barry Lyndon he also pushed the film 1 stop & it came out OK

Rather the same as some people prefer to shoot with Tungsten light as its got a better colour spectrum. Those same people do not like being told to shoot with daylight balanced sources because its better for a digital sensor. Artists or haters ?

 

[Satsuki Murashige]

First, the Arri 235 is a great, lightweight ergonomic dream of a handheld camera, but it is not quiet and is not usable if you need to record dialogue. You should get an Arricam LT or an Aaton Penelope if you need a modern handheld sync sound camera. Or you can go with the slightly older Moviecam SL or Aaton 35-3 if you're on a budget.

Second, if your lighting is 5600K, then you're much better off shooting with 250D stock. It will be much less grainy than 500T pushed 1 stop. I've worked on several projects shot this way, and it looks fantastic. If you really need the stop, then I would use 500T and leave the lights uncorrected. You can correct the color balance when you scan the film.