Red to Film Output

[Leon Trinidad]

Hi guys, I have a finished Edit of a feature film in locked proxies shot on RED going to do a FILM print in the end. My colorist works in COLOR, I know that is limited to 2K DPX files.

What workflow would you guys recomend for this process?

This is an ultra low budget, we cannot afford a scratch system or true post house.

Thanks for your help guys, any info would be appreciated.

 

[ThomtheEditor]

We're doing the same thing right now. Our workflow is as follows:

1. Conform with Clipfinder to 2k using whatever aspect ratio you want (16x9, 2:1, etc)
2. Color off of the proxies and output to whatever format you prefer (or have harddrive space for, we're going with proresHQ, dpx for vfx shots)
3. Render and send to FCP, layin finished audio
4. Export Full-Res Quicktime for your film out and you're done!

 

[Leon Trinidad]

wow, can't thank you enough for your help.

 

[BigLu]

Thats RAD anybody else done anything similar?

 

[Evangelos Achillopoulos]

I don't want to sound bad... but there is another small thing... a very small detail... tiny one...

...don't expect to get even close to what you were seeing in your monitor to the film projection... you need real LUTs specific for your monitor setup and real color management to do a proper film out...

You can grade in a broadcast monitor and hope that some ancient god of luck will love you and be lucky enough to get it 70% close to what you were seeing...

No hard feelings... I'm just preparing you...

 

[jake blackstone]

Ultra low budget and it's going to film? What color space are you grading in? You can't use the LIN DPX straight to film without the LOG conversion. Do you have the LUT for that? What about the filmout LUT?

 

[Dan Hudgins]

Filmout

Filmout

This is an ultra low budget, we cannot afford a scratch system or true post house.

I'm doing a filmout from some stuff we shot with a Canon in H.264 converted to 24fps now. We underexposed a little to hold the highlights, the H.264 shows some more artifacts than REDCODE, so the grading range is more limited maybe.

I have found that a ROSCO #22 Redish Orange filter seems to get colse to balance off a 1600x1200 LCD monitor using Vision Color print stock. The exposure delay is about 45 to 60 seconds per frame (for each of 3 passes at T/2.8). If you want to try it you can email or PM me for the gamma spread values to use for the three pass exposure mode. Many film recorders convert 2K down to 1828 for the image area, so you do not get 2K on some "2K" film recorders. LCD seem sharper than CRT so maybe its about the same, anyway on our small screening room screen it looks good so far projected off the 35mm print stock. My program lets you make test strips of the key-frame from each shot in an edited reel, so you do not need LUT you can look at the film and make adjustments to the greading if needed then make another test strip to see if you have everything graded right for the film output. Its best to use a good CRT monitor for grading since LCD change as you move your head around.

Going direct to printstock can save you a bunch if you only need a single print to show. I'm looking into ways to increase the red light output from the LCD monitor so you do not need to use such a heavy filter to get balance. You can also make a printing negative using "short ends" if you want to go that way, in that case the exposure time would be a second or so depending on the filters and T/ stop.

You might also check out Cinevator made prints, but DIY would be the bottom low end range, that is why I wrote DANCINEL.EXE (tm). BTW my edit system does any size 4K and more in uncompressed TIF with color correction its "freeish" to download.

 

[ThomtheEditor]

um, also, color supports LUTs

 

[Chris Pickle]

Sort of related question:

On very low-budgets, why not "conform" to 1080 uncompressed or even prores and just conform right in FCP by re-pointing project to the 1080, then send to Color? 1080 is so close to 2k, correct.

This way you don't have to go out to a house or cross-platform.

If it wasn't good enough for a film-out, would it be good enough for the broadcast master or the occasional digital projection at a festival?

Chris

 

[Dan Hudgins]

1080 vs filmout

1080 vs filmout

1080 is so close to 2k, correct.
If it wasn't good enough for a film-out, would it be good enough for the broadcast master or the occasional digital projection at a festival?

Since many "2K" filmrecorders are only using 1828 for the image area, you need to down-rez 1920x1080 and 2048x1152 to 1828x1028, giving you about the same look as far as resolution.

The StarWars movies and I think the SuperMan movie were shot with 1920x1080 three chip cameras. You need a 2.5K to 4K in a Bayer sensor camera to get a good 1920x1080 image, so when you shoot 4K and down-rez with good software you get enough resolution for todays standards of 35mm print.

Since there are no projectionists to keep the projector in focus, going to a 4K filmout is almost pointless, the projector will be too far out of focus maybe for any significant viewing of the extra details.

Shooting 4K in the REDONE rather than 2K should show up in the print, so if you can shoot 4K and down-rez in good software to reduce aliasing artifacts.

 

[Chris Pickle]

Since many "2K" filmrecorders are only using 1828 for the image area, you need to down-rez 1920x1080 and 2048x1152 to 1828x1028, giving you about the same look as far as resolution.

The StarWars movies and I think the SuperMan movie were shot with 1920x1080 three chip cameras. You need a 2.5K to 4K in a Bayer sensor camera to get a good 1920x1080 image, so when you shoot 4K and down-rez with good software you get enough resolution for todays standards of 35mm print.

Since there are no projectionists to keep the projector in focus, going to a 4K filmout is almost pointless, the projector will be too far out of focus maybe for any significant viewing of the extra details.

Shooting 4K in the REDONE rather than 2K should show up in the print, so if you can shoot 4K and down-rez in good software to reduce aliasing artifacts.

Wow, isin't that ironic, that you would "down-res" your 1080 to fit the image area on a 2k scanner.

So it seems like you are mostly agreeing with the idea of "conforming" in 1080? I guess the question them becomes; is there enough bit depth, (if that's the right way to describe it) in 1080 uncompressed or 1080 prores to provide color enough info to work the image? Does it give you enough control?

If it was sufficient enough to mostly be no different to the eye, or there-abouts ... well, then it would seem that the weak link, or the important part, wouldn't be the bit depth, but the person working Color?

Cheers,
Chris

 

[jake blackstone]

So, what was the color space used, while grading? If it was Rec-709, then you need Rec-709 to DCI or to 2383/2393 filmout LUT. Frankly I would worry about this issue even more than HD vs 2k vs 1828x1028.

 

[Andrew Young]

Our Arri Laser recorders have a LUTs to convert from Rec709 and we have done many filmouts this way with great results. If you're working in Apple Color to a calibrated Rec709 monitor, we can you very close with a calibration chart and test filmout and we'll work with you on pricing. Please email or PM me if you want more info (ayoung@duart.com). We're based in New York.

We're currently doing a project that off-lined with M proxies in FCP, conformed to wrapped Quicktimes using Clipfinder, native 2K color correct in color and will filmout from 2K tiffs. Should have a demo of that to show soon.

 

[Evangelos Achillopoulos]

Our Arri Laser recorders have a LUTs to convert from Rec709 and we have done many filmouts this way with great results. If you're working in Apple Color to a calibrated Rec709 monitor, we can you very close with a calibration chart and test filmout and we'll work with you on pricing. Please email or PM me if you want more info (ayoung@duart.com). We're based in New York.

I do have the same machine (ARRILaser that is), and when I try to do the same thing, if I compare it, with the regular Log color managed work flow, always the REC709 (linear processed) looks like video, with milky blacks, and lots of color differences... on the other hand the Log is perfect... blockbuster level of image...

So since you have great success with linear REC709 work flow... In Duart what you prefer for your big Hollywood 2k/4k DI projects? Log color managed work flow or REC709 to linear with ARRI Lut's?

Because for the low budged you just said that the Linear REC709 is the norm...

Is there a difference between the two methods? and if its not why the Log is more costly? Its a boutique type of thing?

Let's see if I will get an answer...

 

[Andrew Young]

I do have the same machine (ARRILaser that is), and when I try to do the same thing, if I compare it, with the regular Log color managed work flow, always the REC709 (linear processed) looks like video, with milky blacks, and lots of color differences... on the other hand the Log is perfect... blockbuster level of image...

So since you have great success with linear REC709 work flow... In Duart what you prefer for your big Hollywood 2k/4k DI projects? Log color managed work flow or REC709 to linear with ARRI Lut's?

Because for the low budged you just said that the Linear REC709 is the norm...

Is there a difference between the two methods? and if its not why the Log is more costly? Its a boutique type of thing?

Let's see if I will get an answer...

Hi Evangelos,

While we do dailies on many Hollywood films, (last year we processed Revlutionary Road and Doubt, for example) we do not do 2K/4K DIs on big budget Hollywood films - most of that work goes to the west coast. Our focus has always been on independents - my uncle was even awarded an Oscar for his dedication to the cause. Indies, of course, tend to be very cost conscious. So typically, we do a linear HD color correct on a DaVinci 2K in 4:4:4, or 4:2:2 depending, but using the full range available and then we filmout from there. It’s not unlike what LaserPacific offers in their In-DI workflow.

Anyway, we’ve done that for many films, including Bowling for Columbine, Transamaerica, Shut up and Sing, My Architect, Coffee and Cigarettes, the Cremaster films. The results look great - I don’t recall any trouble getting good blacks.

We do often filmout log DPXs from other facilities and those look great too, it just seems to require more rigorous color management on the color correct end of things. So as we move into the Red One / Apple Color age of the do it yourself color correct, it’s easier for us to get predictable results from un-color managed facilities when they work in Rec709 linear.

Log certainly has it’s place and we will no doubt be offering this as well. But considering that the Red One is a linear capture device and working with it natively in Color is also essentially linear, so I don’t think it’s inherently a bad way to work, especially if your on a budget. Getting to HD and BlueRay masters from there is certainly easy. Anyway, we encourage everyone to do tests to make sure the results match their expectations, and we have a reel of demo material that we screen on request.

What you are doing certainly sounds very interesting and a welcomed addition to the community. I’d love to meet you some time.

 

[Ido Karilla]

We're currently doing a project that off-lined with M proxies in FCP, conformed to wrapped Quicktimes using Clipfinder, native 2K color correct in color and will filmout from 2K tiffs. Should have a demo of that to show soon.

I have been playing with this workflow a bit, I find the renders from color of the 2k DPX ( no TIFF's from color) quite disapointing. If you introduce reframing/scaling then they become even more disapointing. Working rec 709 in the red tab compared to redlog has resulted with significant cliping in the highlights and frustrating shalow blacks. To get good blacks on my rec 709 monitor I would have to crush the blacks to a point that the image looks bad and explain the DP and director that they will have to trust my word that it will look fine on the print.

What monitor are you using for grading while working rec. 709? how do you calibrate it to get a good reference of the film out?

Thanks.

 

[jake blackstone]

Autodesk in it's white paper on the subject of grading RED recommends using PD685 color space conversion from native linear RED RAW into the LOG DPX for grading with Lustre in their workflow for filmout or DCI deliverables. This way you're not using the Rec-709, which is a terrible idea for filmout to begin with. Instead, PD685 conversion will allow you to use a full LOG film color space with no video clipping and loss of color gamut, which is the preferred method normally used for filmout or DCI deliverables. And in the process you'll end up with the proper LOG DPX files, ready for the proper filmlout with no conversion needed. But all this doesn't diminish the need for a good filmlab or DCI LUT...

 

[M Most]

Autodesk in it's white paper on the subject of grading RED recommends using PD685 color space conversion from native linear RED RAW into the LOG DPX for grading with Lustre in their workflow for filmout or DCI deliverables. This way you're not using the Rec-709, which is a terrible idea for filmout to begin with. Instead, PD685 conversion will allow you to use a full LOG film color space with no video clipping and loss of color gamut, which is the preferred method normally used for filmout or DCI deliverables. And in the process you'll end up with the proper LOG DPX files, ready for the proper filmlout with no conversion needed. But all this doesn't diminish the need for a good filmlab or DCI LUT...

That is not correct. What they recommend is PDLog985 with a 2 stop pull. The problem with PD685 is that the available levels are not used optimally as all values are forced to be between 95 and 685, even if those levels should actually be "super black" or "super white." By using PD985, the values are spread more over the available range, as they should be.

Redlog is another option, and a good one if you know how to handle it properly. Of course, if you happen to be using Scratch, there are other options that are even simpler and more accurate. And none of these choices make any sense unless you a) understand what you're dealing with, and b) have a proper film print preview LUT in place in the first place. If you don't, Andrew's advice makes a lot more sense than trying to guess as to what it's going to ultimately look like.

 

[Evangelos Achillopoulos]

Andrew, Duart, LaserPasific, Efilms, Technicolor and others are a point of reference for all of us out there, outside of Hollywood... so when we hear a suggestion we put a lot weight on that opinion... we start testing it, same of us we depend whole projects on them... a more in depth with the pros and cons would be better, people want always the best for the less money possible... its a give and take process... Log is much better but not at indie budged, indies they need to know that.

Karilla, please explain your experience so far with REC709 workflows, with two different post houses that using few of the best REC709 monitor available... in comparison to what we do together in log... without even know me in person, just a voice over the phone, the first movie is in Cannes with just the zero print and NO further corrections and now its the second feature that we do together...

The quote from the producer of the first film that we did with Ido:

"Dear Evangelos,

Many many thanks for a job extremely well done and for the wonderful hospitality by you and your charming brother.
Looking forward to working with you again in the near future.
Next time I will not come in Athens, I didn't believe it, now I know, I don't need a corrected copy, zero copy is immediately perfect.
I will be screening the print to a bunch of the top Israeli film producers and I will gladly recommend working with you.

Best,

Haim"


So to wrap up...

• REDLog or PD985 with -1 to -2 in exposure is the best source to start with.
  
• Until now, Redcine delivers better debayer than Color.
  
• Log workflow has a film response, that means, it doesn't clip highlights nor blacks, it just compress them. REC709 or linear is just clipping...
  
• If there is absolute NO chance a project to reach film, then REC709 is possible...
  
• Even if you are NOT going to film, grading with a Film print LUT in Log always deliver, more Cinematic images, that then, with a LOG to REC709 conversion LUT can deliver the best results for DCI, DVD, Broadcast and BlueRay
  
• The linear workflow VS Log workflow, for Filmout there is no contest... Log is much better in many ways, RED could be linear, but film is LOG and if you want to play in the film playground you have to play by the rules... film rules... film understands only Log...
  
• You can do a REC709 workflow, but don't expect THE BEST results...
  
• If you want a Video look, DON'T do a Log workflow...
  
• Log workflow for filmout needs a proper color managed LUT driven workflow and that is a fact.-

And as Mikes points out "And none of these choices make any sense unless you understand what you're dealing with"

 

[Evangelos Achillopoulos]

That is not correct. What they recommend is PDLog985 with a 2 stop pull. The problem with PD685 is that the available levels are not used optimally as all values are forced to be between 95 and 685, even if those levels should actually be "super black" or "super white." By using PD985, the values are spread more over the available range, as they should be.

Yes its not correct, its probably a typo, he meant PD985... I suppose, because all the rest are right on...