RED Team - Official RED-certified ProRes / DNxHD recorders?

[Greg M]

Can you clarify what "epic support" means? Epic outputs HD-SDI, so any HD-SDI to ProRes recorder (like the Aja KIPro) could do it. Is this Sound Devices doing anything extra special that makes it have "Epic Support"?

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both AJA and Sound Device support Epic

 

[M Most]

It may be 1080P 4:4:4 but its still a "quick" debayer so if quality is your quest its still an offline path in my book.

That's a good point to remember. In my world (primarily network and cable scripted television production), it's not really about transcoding, it's about simplicity (i.e., no settings to play with), having the finishing resolution right from the get-go, and maintaining nearly all of the original picture information via log coding. What Alexa does that Red currently doesn't is to provide a master that is already HD resolution, that is created via a very high quality debayer, that is in log space, in a file format that is already widely supported (except on Linux of course, but that's another story....). I don't know of any shows that are using the Prores 4444 files directly for offline, they all go through some kind of dailies transcode process - in part because for the most part they're all cutting on Avids, in part because they still need to do double system sound synching, and in part because nobody wants to look at the log images. Some use the transcoded, color corrected material directly for finishing, others conform the original ProRes files.

I think that one of the assumptions often made here is that the Alexa's advantage in the part of the industry I deal with is the ability to go "direct to edit" with the ProRes files. That's a bit of a misnomer. The perceived difference between the Alexa and Red on the part of most producers I know is that with the Alexa, transcoding is a straightforward process that doesn't involve special hardware, reframing, changing resolutions, or "complex" parameter settings that if incorrectly set will bone you (their words, not necessarily mine). And when the show is conformed, none of those things are necessary, either. And the conform itself can be done on an Avid because the original material is already in a file format that Avid can read and play. It's about the simplicity, and where that simplicity lies is not always obvious if one isn't looking in the right places. One thing I feel might put Red back in the television series game in a bigger way might be a module that does a full (or at least half premium) debayer and scaling to HD resolution, incorporating Redcolor2 and RedlogFilm in the process, and provides either DNxHD or ProRes files with proper metadata, while still allowing the camera to output to set monitoring using, say, Redcolor2 and Redgamma. This would essentially give users what Alexa is giving them, but without having to deal with the various debayer choices in post, and without the need to have a Rocket card or do any rescaling for finishing. It would also allow the production to record the full Redcode files simultaneously, allowing for 4K archiving solutions - thus one-upping the Alexa approach. That might not be what Red's vision is, but it is what much of the television industry apparently wants. The KiPro solution is almost there, but not quite.

 

[Michael Lindsay]

Thinking about buying a Pix 240...

What would be 'very usefull' is the ability to play back slowmo shots from the epic and have them record correctly to the Pix 240. Otherwise it would often, for my jobs, take longer to account and track the ofspead stuff than the few hours saved by skipping processing. Thoughts?

This way I could use the Pic 240 to create DnxHd 36 media of 'all shots' and obvosuly conform from the R3d files later. This would save me a little bit of time and on some jobs could very usfull.

Michael L

 

[Max M.]

It may be 1080P 4:4:4 but its still a "quick" debayer so if quality is your quest its still an offline path in my book.

FWIW I would love to see Sound Devices and RED work together to create the next generation version of the Pro I/O module. The PIX 240 offers a compelling core for such an offering with state of the art audio quality, portable form factor, TC generator/reader, ProRes or DNxHD transcodes on the fly (with multiple format conversion options) and that terrific Sound Devices build quality. I know it may be more difficult than it sounds but couldn't you just build a bracket/casing that fits on an Epic module adapter and Bob's your uncle? Just asking'...

Cheers - #19

+1 fot this one, that would be lovely!

 

[Rocco Schult]

Can don't think HDMI or Single HDSDI can carry a 4444 signal.

I don't think it is a question of data transport, rather the ability of the encoding hardware - they may just be unable to perform that codec to do ProRes4444, I'd be guessing it is performance, code incompatibility or just a plain simple licensing issue (Apple either denying PR4444 or asking too much for it).
Noone of them does it (there is also MOTU in the game somewhere, just not that portable), and noone does PR4444.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

But isn't the live output from Epic kind of a lower quality "preview only" live debayer with more aliasing and other issues?

 

[Deanan]

But isn't the live output from Epic kind of a lower quality "preview only" live debayer with more aliasing and other issues?

No, it's a full debayer.

 

[M Most]

No, it's a full debayer.

That's good to know. Am I still correct in assuming that external recorders like the KiPro or the Pix 240 are fed from the monitoring output of the camera? If so, that would likely still prevent users from recording using RedlogFilm as the gamma curve if the folks at Video Village didn't want to look at "unprocessed" images. Unless, of course, you fed set monitoring through a LUT box, which although do-able means more hardware and more complication.

I'm not suggesting that Red turn Epic into an Alexa. They are two very different approaches for very good reasons. I am suggesting that if incorporated into a module that could look at the data on the internal bus rather than the video output it might offer something that users of the Alexa do seem to want. For those who understand "the Red way," the current transcoding methods work just fine. For others... well......

 

[Nook Kim]

Red shoots nearly 90 percent of the features in Korea. Red shoots about 15 percent of the TVC's in Korea, and the numbers keep going down.
What is suggested here WILL make a fast come back, especially with the Epic.

Bring on Prores module, and we will see a much bigger success for Red. Why not...

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

I absolutely love taking RAW data into the "digital darkroom" and "developing" it into carefully crafted RGB images. For my own projects the PIX 240 will be essentially a sound recorder that creates offline media on the fly. That said, its not lost on me that such a device will make it much easier to keep my Epic busy and pay the bills...

Cheers - #19

 

[Pedro Guimaraes]

This is a solution I cooked up for the last 3D epic feature I was on using the Ki-pro mini's....take a look at the article i wrote up about it on my blog.

http://steadi3d.com/2011/09/red-epic...th-aja-ki-pro/

It worked.....not without some hickups from time to time but was great solution for this production.
Not to mention it gives you on set playback.....

 

[Daniel Christie]

I agree, It would be nice to see a ProRes/DnXHD DSMC module (there was talk about a proxy module a while back, but the focus seemed to be on H.264, not so useful IMHO). It would also be nice to record those files in a log colour space like the Alexa and F3 do. Sure, we'd all like to shoot RAW all the time, but for broadcast and corporate it's just not always practical.

 

[Häakon]

FWIW I would love to see Sound Devices and RED work together to create the next generation version of the Pro I/O module. The PIX 240 offers a compelling core for such an offering with state of the art audio quality, portable form factor, TC generator/reader, ProRes or DNxHD transcodes on the fly (with multiple format conversion options) and that terrific Sound Devices build quality. I know it may be more difficult than it sounds but couldn't you just build a bracket/casing that fits on an Epic module adapter...

+1 to this, bigtime.

 

[stu aull]

And if I may chime in to all this discussion with a Scarlet (soon-to-be) user perspective - the ability to use an attached stand-alone recorder a la PIX (220 version I guess since last I heard Scarlet was not going to feature an SDI out, just HDMI) will be huge for us small independents. While I would love to embrace the All-RED pipeline, reality, especially financial, is that many Scarlet users will simply not be able to cough up the matching cost of the camera system in supporting SSD media! Of course we hope that will change down the road as Moore's Law erodes the prices, but the point is there is initially going to be a HUGE new RED user group where the siren-song of inexpensive HD recording capability (matched with RED performance, RAW notwithstanding) is going to be a choice/necessity.

Stu Aull
Alaska

 

[David Kudell]

I was debating between one of these ProRes modules and a Red Rocket for workflow, and I'm so glad I went with the Red Rocket. Once you use RAW, you just can't go back to ProRes. There isn't a single shot I've taken that I haven't been able to substantially improve from even doing a one-light color grade in Red Cine X, and with the Red Rocket, the transcodes are in real time. So I think you're just shooting yourself in the foot by hooking up one of these external modules. Not to mention having to connect the thing, with SDI cables and power cords, etc. Blah. It's all a step backward from RAW, and the Red Rocket card isn't that much more than these modules cost + you get so much more from it.

 

[Häakon]

I was debating between one of these ProRes modules and a Red Rocket for workflow, and I'm so glad I went with the Red Rocket.

I can't speak for everyone, but for me, these devices work completely in tandem. Being able to throw very lightweight footage (synced with pro quality sound) directly into an NLE that I can cut at rapid speed and roundtrip back to REDCINE-X Pro - where I only render (with the Rocket) the parts of the 5K files I need - is an amazingly efficient and powerful workflow which combines the best aspects of each approach without the compromises of either.

On top of that, you get timecode gen/jam/lock, up/down/cross convert, and a secondary monitor that make it a totally different product than the Rocket.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

kipro and sound device look nice for feature work without slowmotion.
but in the commercial world (at least in mine) the epic is used only because of the slo motion ability and the size. (i am doing mostly car commercials).
coming to the alexa, the advantage of the alexa is their internal "setting" so the asa matches a lighmeter, the standard connectors on the plus, so steadycam op, sound man etc. can use their gear with the cam etc., not the prores recording by itself. its the cinestyle configuration right out of the box. you dont really have to make it workable for collaborative cinestyle 2D productions with adaptercables, adapterboxes etc. (no xmas tree- rig kind of)
i want/wish a 'cinestyle' module with only one xlr input, TC, 3x hdsdi monitor outs with different possible overlays, Another lcd port,a modification of the current lcd port (right now the lcd cable sometimes disturbs the ac to change the lense.
the cinestyle module should also be able to mount the redmote to the dead side of the body, and have the right powerports to run assecoires like cinetape, c-motion etc.
on top of that a dnxhd module which is aware of slo motion shots. its 6am here, so my weirdo english is even weird right now. hope you get what i mean

 

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

No, it's a full debayer.

I've been looking for this piece of information for a while, perhaps information like this should be in the spec sheet especially since it differs from R1 so one would not assume it to be the case. I wish information like this was not so hard to find in these forums.

 

[Trevor Meeks]

So is it safe to assume the Sound Devices recorder is Scarlet compatible as well? Any info on this Jarred?

 

[Jarred Land]

So is it safe to assume the Sound Devices recorder is Scarlet compatible as well? Any info on this Jarred?

correct...