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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Red Support Equipment savings

Michael Struthers said:
I'd also guess that the price of the Red Body will go up after NAB - but not a lot. Let's say $22,500.00
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I would be very suprised if it did. They have made a big thing of the 17.5k price all along, I would imagine the price will hold unless they have some fundamental problems. I think Jim even stated on DvxUser that their intention was to stick to that price if at all possible (or words to that effect).

M
 
The implication has always appeared to me to be that (for the time being at least) they hope to keep the price the same. They will just give a better value package for that price to reservation holders.
 
I would rather have a beefed up service plan/warranty bundle with my RED. Kinda like Canon's free owner's club. I've sent a camera and a lens out for repair through the "club" and had it back in less than 5 business days.
When something goes wrong in our business and your stuck without a backup camera, things get bad pretty quick.

A hardware discount with another company would be cool, but I can't see that happening, at least in any appreciable amount with the high costs of cine gear. Plus most of us have different opinions on support gear and peripherals and tend to piecemeal our eqiupment from job to job instead of buying a bundle.

A software discount, however seems like a very good idea.
 
I think the Red price is bound to go up after the initial run; I could see the price doubling quite easily. It would still be a miracle product at twice the price. When I think of the price of my digital back, a far less complex device, I just don't see how they could hold the line at $17.5K.
Aloha
-A
 
Yes, I think the price will stay the same till after the initial offering is complete. After that, I think not.
Aloha
-A
 
Either it is economic to produce the camera at 17.5k or it isn't. If Red got the sums totally wrong then the price might go up in the medium to long term. But assuming they got the sums right and there is no evidence to suggest otherwise, then the price will hold. I can't see any logic for bringing the camera out at 17.5k with the intention of then raising the price. It would only happen if the process of building the camera was radically more expensive than originally envisaged or the business strategy totally changed. I am suprised to see people so certain that the price is sure to go up. Why do you think the price will rise? Do you think Jims plan was always flawed?

M
 
Martin:
Seems you're much deeper in price-comparisons then I am. I have a Chrosziel follow-focus and found it nicer than the more costly Arri FF3. But this is 10 years ago and time changes, prices go up and Chrosziel might change their price politics. Any how, if there is a market someone will fill the gap with rugged and decent cine-gear for a reasonable price.
Marketingwise (Jim Jannard is a marketing-god) I think it is the most stupid move to create a feel of community (we (David) angainst them (Goliath)) and later to destroy this unique and very valuable feeling. The brand RED relies entirely on this community feeling. Hence this board and all the other stuff. And I like it. No price increase, I suppose.

Chuck, Stephen: I tried the 20-100 Cooke also on a P&S Pro adaptor. No vignetting. Wideangle and macrro lenses always tend to vignett on this adaptor. Thanks for the competent replies I will test this issue deeply.

Hans
 
I'll venture a guess here, since I've been wondering about this A LOT, and have two theories . . .

A. Jim is out to democratize the filmmaking industry by offering "big budget" image-making quality at a price almost any filmmaker could afford. Price stays the same, with moderate increases.

B. Jim is out to democratize the filmmaking industry by offering "big budget" image-making quality at a price almost any filmmaker could afford, BUT ONLY to the first 1,500 or so reservation holders (true believers), and probably to NAB2007 attendees that also sign up. However, all the nay sayers and late adopters will pay the price it's really worth after that. Price goes up according to demand.

Early adopters (current, and NAB2007 reservation holders) will serve to "evangelize" the rest of the filmmaking industry. That's industry with a capital 'I.' Established DPs, studios, major distributors, other camera manufacturers. The entire production world will eventually take notice of RED. I see a LOT of F900s in Hollywood stages. I mean, A LOT. Traditional film DPs, those who abhor the thought of moving their film shows to F900s (and rightly so), may be enticed to at least consider RED. Studio bottom-liners will be VERY enticed by RED. Once critical mass is reached, it'll become the new Hollywood de facto standard for high end digital acquisition. And that's a LOT of REDs.
 
Martin said:
Either it is economic to produce the camera at 17.5k or it isn't. If Red got the sums totally wrong then the price might go up in the medium to long term. But assuming they got the sums right and there is no evidence to suggest otherwise, then the price will hold. I can't see any logic for bringing the camera out at 17.5k with the intention of then raising the price. It would only happen if the process of building the camera was radically more expensive than originally envisaged or the business strategy totally changed. I am suprised to see people so certain that the price is sure to go up. Why do you think the price will rise? Do you think Jims plan was always flawed?

M
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Jannard said:
The price of the RED ONE is so low that we would lose money if we threw in a case!

Jim
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Martin a pelican case for a RED will set you back like $100 - $150 and that is list price. So what would a case actually cost to build? I think RED is going to have to make a little more money per camera then this to keep running.

I think it will be quite likely for RED to double or triple the price. I feel the initial prices were a marketing gig to get the camera out to people that needed a camera but didn't have the large $$ to do so. In the end it is great marketing to get your product out to a bunch of people and make everyone else envy what they have. I think it is probably a lot cheaper then actually marketing by having a bunch of events to try and lure buyers in. Filmakers will see what indy's and lower budget productions are doing with this camera and want one bad.

All I can say for sure is that for us that reserved early we pay 17,500. For those that try and buy later my guess is you will be paying more.
 
Finner said:
Martin a pelican case for a RED will set you back like $100 - $150 and that is list price. So what would a case actually cost to build?
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I would budget $50

Finner said:
I think RED is going to have to make a little more money per camera then this to keep running.

I think it will be quite likely for RED to double or triple the price. I feel the initial prices were a marketing gig to get the camera out to people that needed a camera but didn't have the large $$ to do so. In the end it is great marketing to get your product out to a bunch of people and make everyone else envy what they have. I think it is probably a lot cheaper then actually marketing by having a bunch of events to try and lure buyers in. Filmakers will see what indy's and lower budget productions are doing with this camera and want one bad.

All I can say for sure is that for us that reserved early we pay 17,500. For those that try and buy later my guess is you will be paying more.
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I would be prepared to bet a Fedora shaped cake (seems to be the going rate these days) that he doesn't put the price up radically. If anything I would expect the price to come down long term.

To me the model Jim appears to be following is based on higher volume sales which allows much lower margins. That is consistent with everything he has said so far. Lower margins however means that there is less per unit fat in the profits. I don't think Jims statement about cases should be taken to imply that Red are only making $50 per camera, merely that they have cut out all the fat in their profit margins so $50 less profit would not be somewhere they wanted to go, this has to take into account the costs involved in growing the company and the return Jim expects on his investment.

If you are right and the price is set to go up then they would have no problem chucking in a case too, it would only be a lost profit for the reservation folders after all. If they were subsequently doubling the price they should be able to swallow an extra $50 per unit for long term sales.

M
 
Martin said:
IIf you are right and the price is set to go up then they would have no problem chucking in a case too, it would only be a lost profit for the reservation folders after all. If they were subsequently doubling the price they should be able to swallow an extra $50 per unit for long term sales.

M
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Hi Martin,

Exactly, If the price doubled or trippled I think future sales would slump.

Stephen
 
Speculation is fun but...

Speculation is fun but...

No matter how smart the folks are that the Red Leader has hired to deal with production of the RedOne in quantity, at this point, the cost of building them is a set of "projections". Once they have built, tested and shipped a few hundred units they will be able to give Jim a much better estimate of actual costs and ideas for streamlining the process.

IMHO, until then no one, not even the Red Leader, can make an informed statement about the long term pricing on the camera.
 
I think once the design is locked down production costs should be quite possible to predict pretty accurately. More significant is the projection of how many people are going to buy the camera. That is the real speculative projection and key given the intention to ship volume.
 
This camera is being made by a guy who owns a company selling sunglasses that retail for $100+ they are very cool sunglasses. They sell tens of thousands of pairs each year. They make quite a decent markup. figure cost of mfg. marketing is $30 a pair wholesale at $50. gross markup about $20 a pair. figuring after the development costs are paid on the first 100,000 pairs of a given style.

Red camera basic body with LCD. $17,500 they are the retailer. so receive the entire price. If the red costs $10,500 based on the same math and they have a gross markup of $7000 lets imagine that development costs are recovered at Nab 2007 when sales go over 2,000 units. This allows development costs of about 14M. Now this is a pretty good percentage of the high end HD type cameras that will be sold this next year so they will dominate the market. They will sell you magazines which contain drives costing them about $400 and a case costing about $100 to $200 for a $1000 each. All of us will need a minimum of two magazines. Thus they will have a gross markup of about 8M Now you will also be needing a battery mount, some red rail to mount it on a shoulder pad for hand held, a red rail or light weight support for your lenses. wanna use Nikons then you need a nikon mount, maybe you need a RED raid for 444 etc etc etc etc. Sure other companies are welcome to compete for these extra sales but they are at a disadvantage both in marketing and technical integration. An example of this is how discussion of open software approaches using Cineform etc have dissapeared here. This is a smart high tech business which will probably be in profit in the second year or the third at latest. They will probably be dominant in their business as they are marketing gurus in a world occupied by engineers. Reminds me of the story... How do you know when an engineer is an extrovert????......He looks at your shoes... SI is delivering a camera right now. It seems to work quite well. Their buzz is minimal. Hey this is a great business model not some charity for starving indy filmmakers. I for one would love to be able to buy stock... but alas.

RE the price of accessories. There are two posts on this thread by knowledgeable business people who have clearly explained why the prices of accessories are as they are and they have been ignored by those who have an agenda to imagine that RED or for that matter any other company is run for their benefit. Bottom line here its a free country if you can start a company to make matt boxes cheaper than Bob Petroff or Chrozeil then go for it and you will discover why they cost what they do.
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
No matter how smart the folks are that the Red Leader has hired to deal with production of the RedOne in quantity, at this point, the cost of building them is a set of "projections". Once they have built, tested and shipped a few hundred units they will be able to give Jim a much better estimate of actual costs and ideas for streamlining the process.

IMHO, until then no one, not even the Red Leader, can make an informed statement about the long term pricing on the camera.
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Totaly agree.

About the accessories, I am going to buildt up the best cine RED package I can afford, and rent (at least for the time to rise money again) what I cannot. So count on me if there is good price/quality cine accessories.

I have already ordered the RED zoom and I would definitely buy RED (or any other brand) matte box and follow focus, if at good quality for decent price (it could be between 500-750 $ each). And I would most definitely buy more accessories if there is a package deal... as much as I can afford:-)

antoine
 
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