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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED Speed control box Please

Mike Prevette said:
With Red's ability to match shutterangle to fps, in-camera ramps start to make more sense (no BS iris ramps, or Sticcato shutter at 24). It is a little fun to do them live, but I agree a post solution is a lot safer/controllable/creative.
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Well they're different aren't they ? IN camera Vs IN post.

And that's my point, which was actually in response to someone asking for a feature and someone saying it could all be done in post.

It's not about being able to *control* it in the field. I was just saying it's different to doing it all in post.

jb
 
It all has to do with Artistic Creativity! What one person shoots, and looks great to them, someone else may question why did they do that? You can't argue that with anyone.

We just had a film feature wrap down here that did a lot of in camera ramping. Interesting that Preston sells the FX unit to interface with the MDR2 for speed ramps and iris pulls.

Everyone likes different flavors. Oh heck, whats the name of that Panasonic HD camera that a lot of people use...
 
John Brawley said:
Well they're different aren't they ? IN camera Vs IN post.
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The look is not any different than a 435es with a RCU. But very different than a BL with an ac on the iris and a old cinema electronics box. Anyway I totally agree options are great, and there is no reason you couldn't make an external pulse generator that controls a ramp*, or just a rapid succession of stills**.


*currently the camera only supports Afps and Bfps to be set via the menu system.

**not sure if the camera can handle fast individual frame triggering. Also you wouldn't get any audio at either end of the ramp.
 
Hey not all DPs want to ramp in the field. Maybe in 1999 we were right into it when it was a novelty, but it's usually time consuming and cumbersome and the director is very often disappointed that the assist didn't presciently get the timing perfect. In fact we often hand the ramp controller to them so they can feel better in post when they see they can't change the timing at all.

There are differences in the look of in camera ramps with the shutter and aperture compensation, but the flexibility of post is really better in most instances.

A controller might be more useful in the context of a Mo Co rig so you could ramp in a designed precise way such as Arri's laptop ramp software. In that you could set precise timing ramps, curves and triggers...

Oh wait, no one used it and Arri stopped updating it didn't they? Everyone was just shooting higher frame rates and doing it in post. ;)

Actually I'm a real geek and I loved doing ramps but I haven't done one in years.

Dale
 
Finner is right. In-camera ramping is not done anymore.

I wrote this in another thread:
It turns out that every director who loved those ramps in 1995 eventually got burned by badly-timed, unfixable-in-post, in-camera ramps! After that happens just once, people realize that all you need to do is shoot everything at the highest speed you will need and you can add the perfectly timed ramps in later, when you have complete control.

The last ramp I did, back in 2003, was only because the job was theatrical with no post budget and could only use whatever effects they could do on film. Red shoots, whether for TV or theatrical will obviously not be finished with a neg cut and optical print. In that case there is no reason to lock yourself into ramps in camera.

I had this same conversation with someone from Arri a few years ago when they were all excited about some new ramping box. His response (imagine a heavy German accent) was "You mean people don't ramp anymore? But vee vorked zo hard on zis box!"
 
playback ramp

playback ramp

Shane V8F said:
I guess it is old habits.. and not wanting to deal with changing the speed of the whole shot. Your way does work, but as a director it would be nice to see the shot played back from camera the way I envisioned it.
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it sounds like what you really want is a speed ramp on the playback. kind of like the various fast forward speeds when you play back takes on the red. except, instead of only a few speed options, you could crank a dial or set a playback ramp to give a preview. i'm sure this would require extra processing power and not be top on red's list of new features but maybe someday.

the only use i can see for old school in-camera ramping can have for anyone is to keep the dp comfortable with a film-like camera workflow and then you have to ask...why not just shoot 35mm?
 
If you need something very precisely timed and executed then of course a post-ramp is certainly the smoothest solution. I would still like to see one of these boxes (or the ability to map a bluetooth controller... Birger maybe). For a choppy strange, stylized look, I think doing it in camera while you are interacting with the scene is a more artistic way (not to mention real-time) to input that data. Plus no rendering later is a plus. It's more about the strange surprises you get. The ultimate for me would be a way for the camera to record this metadata from the controller so we could shoot at 120fps and fine tune the ramp later.
 
arrinick said:
Just cause Finner and Shawn can't do it right, don't punish the rest of us ;-)
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They didn't say they could not do it, just that there are better ways now
given the advances in the post world, which I agree especially shooting raw.
 
Imho...

Imho...

To reitierate what has been said a couple times in this thread... It's more about having the choice.

The great thing about making movies today are the number of production options you have to achieve your final image.

For example:
If you were shooting a fighting scene involving a burning torch, many shots would likely use a practical torch, but select shots might be considered "safer" with VFX/CG fire added in post...
Certainly doesn't mean that an actual burning torch wouldn't work all the way through, but you have that option.

If you want to play with ramp timings in-camera on your set, so be it!

Sure, it would eat up time on set, but if you have that time, this kind of experimentation is where happy accidents, and amazing shots, are often born. Sure, post production is an integral part of the filmmaking process, but the randomness of on set chaos can create some amazing happy accidents, and spectacularly impactful results, that would have never likely happened in post.

so, long story short, I'd rather have the option to ramp in camera, and never use it, than not have the option at all.

-Skitch
 
JoshBertrand said:
The ultimate for me would be a way for the camera to record this metadata from the controller so we could shoot at 120fps and fine tune the ramp later.
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Now that would be the best option IMO. Non-destructive ramping.... only stores the ramp in the metadata; So it can be played back live. But it doesn't limit the ramp to what was done on-set.
 
gnomer said:
I hate that DOPs want to do all in field by themselves. I prefer clean perfect footage without any art. Then you can play with image and make your art later in post. That way it is more under control.
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do what you like and hate what you hate, but some people got different style

greetz manolo :-)
 
Skitch said:
Sure, it would eat up time on set, but if you have that time, this kind of experimentation is where happy accidents, and amazing shots, are often born. Sure, post production is an integral part of the filmmaking process, but the randomness of on set chaos can create some amazing happy accidents, and spectacularly impactful results, that would have never likely happened in post.

so, long story short, I'd rather have the option to ramp in camera, and never use it, than not have the option at all.

-Skitch
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This is my point exactly. I love happy accidents, especially on music videos. I like the meta data idea. It would be non destructive, and you could adjust to compensate for any errors, but you could also play it back right away so the DoP and Director would know the performance for that take was correct.
 
it seems there are a lot of different opinions on this thread.

perhaps time for a poll?

i also would say, to have the abillity on set it's a must. evereybody can do what he likes. post worklflow is also a kool work.

i don't understand why some people seem to be pissed off to have the choice. if you don't need on-set ramp regulation so, don't use it and let us have our fun with it. hahahahahahahaa

greetz manolo
 
No has mentioned the fact that if everything is shot at, say, 120 fps 180 degree shutter, the shutter speed will be 1/240 sec. Making the stuff slowed down/sped up to normal speed 24fps in post have the stuttery motion of something shot with a 45 degree shutter (actually a bit narrower) at 24fps. If you don't want that look on the normal speed action, I don't see why there shouldn't be an option for you.

This thread is reminding me of the first music video that I shot where we had a guy helping who apparently was upset that we didn't ask him to shoot since he had a lot of experience and I had none. He spent the entire day telling me that I couldn't do things the way that I wanted. "Well that's not the way it's done", "you can't flag that light", "it's music video, you have to go crazy with the zooming", etc.... Not only did I learn a lot by trying stuff and doing things the way that I wanted, but none of the stuff that the guy told me couldn't be done were true. They were all just "rules" that he had been told at some point, and so he followed them blindly.

I know that some of you have a lot of experience in the industry and it is usually really helpful on a forum like this. But I just don't see the point in trying to make someone feel stupid or out of the loop for wanting to try something or as other people have said, to have options. If you have a method that you think will work better, perhaps a suggestion would help someone else out a bit more than rolling your eyes and chuckling. Just my opinion.
 
parisrem said:
No one has mentioned the fact that if everything is shot at, say, 120 fps 180 degree shutter, the shutter speed will be 1/240 sec. Making the stuff slowed down/sped up to normal speed 24fps in post have the stuttery motion of something shot with a 45 degree shutter (actually a bit narrower) at 24fps. If you don't want that look on the normal speed action, I don't see why there shouldn't be an option for you.
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Didn't think of that.... that would mean even the metadata approach would have to same problem (I would think). Could we get both, non-destructive (metadata) ramping and "destructive" (non-metadata) ramping?

So it be better to get non-destructive (metadata) ramping for the ability to fine tune in post (which could possible have shutter problems, but might be okay for some people) and destructive (non-metadata) ramping, which would actually increment the framerate on the ramp instead of just using metadata.
 
I totally understand artistic expression and doing things different. The biggest reason we had a chuckle at the director was because the DP explained to him why a post ramp would be a large advantage and the director could not understand how it would work and was quite arrogant about how a post ramp was impossible.

Options are great. The thing is red has their hands full right now so do you think building an obscure rarely used tool is really the best use of their time? I would much rather they work on the major Infrared, rolling shutter, poorly fitting accessories, off axis sensor and audio phantom power buzz problems. Also I do not wish for other red accessories to go way up in price to offest expenses caused from a lot of time and money spent developing a speed ramp module that was purchased by 3 people.
 
parisrem is right. The effective shutter SPEED shortens as you shoot a higher framerate (180 degrees is shorter at 120fps than 180 degrees at 24fps), and if you drop frames to get back to 24fps, the image will have a stroby look...
BUT THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENS when you do an in-camera ramp with shutter compensation. You open up iris to accommodate your higher framerate, and the shutter compensation skinnies it to correct the exposure at 24fps.
So there REALLY is no difference whether you do it live or in post except, as others have noted, you can more thoroughly control it in post...
Cheers,
Harry
 
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