Red should scrap all these brains.

[Hans von Sonntag]

Hi Hans
I know this is a little off topic, but why wouldnt a HD B4 lens not work on a Scarlet, sure they are designed to project onto a prism that splits the light onto the three seperate CCD's but that is in the camera. There is still an image coming out the back that is designed for a 2/3rds chip.
The B4 adapter in the Red shop was designed to spread the image over the 2k area of the Red Ones chip, But Scarlet is using a different chip with densor pixel spacing meaning we get 3k on a 2/3rd chip, something the Red Ones chip cant do. The original specification for the Scarlet 2/3rds had a B4 mount listed, although mention of all mounts now seems to have been removed it seems odd that you would have a B4 mount on a 2/3rds inch chip camera and not be able to take a B4 lens.

I may be misunderstanding the optics, maybe your right. I'd like to know for sure.

Red Ones B4 adapter wouldn't work, it would spread the image over to big an area meaning you would be effectively cropping your image severely, wouldnt it?

Now I'm really unsure!

Cheers

Hugh

Hi Hugh

I'm not a lens tech but if I recall right the B4 adapter is not only an extender that matches the 2/3 16:9 11.7mm x 6.6mm gate onto a S16 12.52 x 7.41 gate but also deals somehow with the fact that a prism is in the light's way. That must have some influence on the focal length.

FYI, the SI2K Mini is entirely - at least concerning the brain - a 2/3 Scarlet with lower specs but the same principle. 1 CMSO sensor, debayering etc.... If your read the specs and ask rental houses your will see that they rent it with PL or C-mount. No B4. However, the P&S IMS, availabe for the Si2K, does include a B4 adapter. A B4 lens will work somehow anyway. The question is: Will it resolve 3K? I'm pretty sure only expensive HD-glas will cope with Scarlet's performance. A high quality HD ENG zoom is over 25k. I guess you know that anyway.

Kind regards,

Hans

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Justin - Interesting points on the Epic vs. Scarlet and seeing them as different cameras. I understand there are going to be major technical differences between the cameras which is why the different price ranges. You are correct when you say that I am wanting these features not at the $28K range since there is a camera that has all this but at a cost that is way to high, in my opinion.
-Lars

I'm going for an Epic, first the infamous EpicX and later the FF35 model.

The reason: I own a RedOne and it has paid for itself already. And I don't mind if it's going to take another year or ever more to make the first 2nd generation Red's available because the RedOne is still way ahead if quality for the money is the game - no competion anywhere in this regard. And I must say I haven't explored the camera not yet fully - actually I just started.

Epic is not expensive. Actually it's a bargain. People must understand that custom sensor cropping, high framerates, speed ramps, etc... are a must for all those who are used to work with 35mm gear and love the possibilities an Arri 435 delivers. This is the market Epic is made for.

If all those nice tricks and tweaks are not important Scarlet is a no-brainer. There are may who shoot 24 fps all the time and use only 35mm glas (said I only?). For me, who needs high frame rates, loves to crop the sensor in any ways (2.5K for S16 zooms for instance) Epic is the logical upgrade. And later, Epic FF35 for extended DR.

Anyone who makes film for a living and can make use of a Red in his/hers line of work will get the investment paid back within a year, latest. I'm not talking about lenses and accessories - but those things are much, much more costly than the camera and hold value on much longer timeframe.

Hans

 

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

I agree with Lars,

I am also very frustrated by the amount of models, and especially by the lack of the really obvious winner (For current RED ONE / 35mm crowd): The Epic S35 Monstro brain.

I am a very very happy RED ONE owner/user and my 1 year RED ONE anniversary is coming up in a week, I made a return on my investment within 4 months of taking delivery, making my RED ONE my best investment ever.

With that in mind I am eager to move along with the new system, but I sincerely hope that RED will make a S35 Monstro camera, and cut down on the number of models.

 

[Erik Bien]

Okay, here's my less-flippant answer ...

When RED dropped the big bombshell about all the new variations, I also was a bit confused: some of the new models were instantly appealing while others left me scratching me head wondering 'Who needs this?'. :umm:

But gradually, as I talked to other current and aspiring RED owners, I discovered that even in my own small circle nearly everyone was jazzed over a different brain — where I was once sure a fixed-zoom 2/3-inch Scarlet was going to be the go-everywhere HV20 replacement of my dreams (I'm not a DP, so if I'm shooting it's generally adventure travel, scouting/BTS/second unit or personal projects), while I'd miss my "wireless fly-by-wire" REDmote lens controls, the prospect of a similar cam with a C-mount started me fantasizing about almost-affordable 16mm versions of real "name brand" cine lenses.

Meanwhile, a friend who's been shooting TVCs on R1 with both PL- and Nikon lenses almost exclusively at 3K since it allows overcranking, reduces the data overhead and still looks great scaled for HD distribution is coveting an S35 Scarlet: mount-swapping looks as if it will be much easier than on the One, and he can get by with lighter, smaller camera support. And another owner I know is just as eager to trade-in for Epic-X as soon as possible. Yet another has gone from coveting Epic-X to the 645, figuring that it might have a unique appeal to a few of his clients and that a few gigs with it would be all it would take to cover the difference in cost.

Different strokes for different folks, yet at the same time all of us could work together on one project and share the same pool of recording media, I/O modules, batteries, etc. In other words, the initial confusion and fear of change have now worn off and I've come to realize how cool and unique that 'symbiotic diversity' could be for lots of projects.

While Jim likes to say that RED still don't know what they're doing, the proposed lineup manages to provide something to appeal to almost every shooter, and making everything modular means they can concentrate finite engineering resources on ONE module connector standard, ONE I/O module, ONE battery module, etc. and still span a Sony-esque breadth of product from mid-range pro-sumer to F35-killer and beyond.

And finally, I find it ironic when people question the wisdom of offering an inexpensive Scarlet with a fixed zoom while grumbling about the bugs and kinks currently found in many of the various RED post workflows. Want better software support for the 5,000-odd R1s in the wild? Then pray RED sells two or three times that number of base-model Scarlets each month. Nothing will spur software vendors to devote more resources to .R3D support than a huge installed base of .R3D-generating appliances!

 

[Chris Hagan]

I agree with Lars,

I am also very frustrated by the amount of models, and especially by the lack of the really obvious winner (For current RED ONE / 35mm crowd): The Epic S35 Monstro brain.

I am a very very happy RED ONE owner/user and my 1 year RED ONE anniversary is coming up in a week, I made a return on my investment within 4 months of taking delivery, making my RED ONE my best investment ever.

With that in mind I am eager to move along with the new system, but I sincerely hope that RED will make a S35 Monstro camera, and cut down on the number of models.

If red were to make a S35 Monstro, why do you care how many other brains they make? I assume there is a market for the selection Red has decided on. Sounds like you're just sour they don't have your desired choice.

 

[Justin O'Neill]

I am also very frustrated by the amount of models, and especially by the lack of the really obvious winner (For current RED ONE / 35mm crowd): The Epic S35 Monstro brain.

I really think you are missing the idea behind the current brain lineup.

If you put a PL mount on the FF35 EPIC brain it indeed does become an EPIC S35 Monstro. The FF35 EPIC is only $5k more then the S35 EPIC mysterium which seems very reasonable for a better sensor.

Think of it this way: RED created an EPIC S35 Monstro brain but then added an extra 1k of resolution in case you want to shoot FF35.

What confuses me is that a couple of you are asking for fewer brains but then ask for a brain that doesn't exist in their current lineup! I have to assume the reason you are asking for crippled brains is that you are hoping the price would be drastically lower. I just don't see that being the case. There is no way RED would price an S35 EPIC Monstro at the same price as the S35 EPIC Mysterium so at most you would be saving $1 - $4k. I can't imagine anyone would chose a 5k brain over a 6k brain just to save a couple thousand when the purchase price is around $30k. Lars asked for a 4k Scarlet that does 120FPS at 4k. When the RED One that costs $17,500 doesn't even come close to 4k at 120FPS there is no way that Scarlet would be much cheaper then the S35 EPIC at $28k.

I think people are forgetting that the Scarlet and EPIC line up costs exponentially less then other cameras with similar specs. For my uses personally and for our clients the current brain lineup is pretty much perfect.

 

[Justin O'Neill]

I personally would trade larger frame size for faster speeds if it is possible.

I am by no means an expert on sensors but from what Jim has said and the way RED has priced their brain lineup it seems larger sensors are no longer terribly expensive. The 6k sensor is $33k and the 28k sensor is $53k.

It would appear that the current bottle neck in camera technology is total data throughput. They can do 3k at 120FPS for $2,500 but 5k at only 30FPS costs $7k. 5k at 100FPS costs $28k.

If you frame size isn't a priority for you it seems the 3k Scarlet would be a perfect match. It does 120FPS for only $2,500.

 

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

Sounds like you're just sour they don't have your desired choice.

that´s just uncalled for.

I really think you are missing the idea behind the current brain lineup. If you put a PL mount on the FF35 EPIC brain it indeed does become an EPIC S35 Monstro. The FF35 EPIC is only $5k more then the S35 EPIC mysterium which seems very reasonable for a better sensor.

Think of it this way: RED created an EPIC S35 Monstro brain but then added an extra 1k of resolution in case you want to shoot FF35.

What confuses me is that a couple of you are asking for fewer brains but then ask for a brain that doesn't exist in their current lineup! I have to assume the reason you are asking for crippled brains is that you are hoping the price would be drastically lower. I just don't see that being the case. There is no way RED would price an S35 EPIC Monstro at the same price as the S35 EPIC Mysterium so at most you would be saving $1 - $4k. I can't imagine anyone would chose a 5k brain over a 6k brain just to save a couple thousand when the purchase price is around $30k. Lars asked for a 4k Scarlet that does 120FPS at 4k. When the RED One that costs $17,500 doesn't even come close to 4k at 120FPS there is no way that Scarlet would be much cheaper then the S35 EPIC at $28k.

I think people are forgetting that the Scarlet and EPIC line up costs exponentially less then other cameras with similar specs. For my uses personally and for our clients the current brain lineup is pretty much perfect.

Not missing anything, I have studied it up and down, and upside down - I use the RED ONE as a replacement (upgrade) for 35mm film, and the P/L mount and the S35 sensor are standards in that regard, I think I share this position with the majority of current RED ONE users.

For us having the DR of the Monstro sensor is the primary reason to upgrade. And so I am really puzzled that RED offers no such model (although there might be many good reasons for it - for example, the natural size of the monstro.)

I am suprised that RED fail to target/recognise one of their key markets - S35mm sensor + High DR capabilities, the FF35 brain will do the job, but a lot of the sensor will remain unused - and it doesn´t feel like a commitment to filmmakers who use P/L optics. I also worry that filmmakers will feel left out by this, and I hope that by writing this RED will adress the issue.

And no one needs to doubt my commitment to RED and their products, even though I question the Epic/Scarlet lineup. -My RED #476 is the coolest camera I ever owned!

 

[Justin O'Neill]

Not missing anything, I have studied it up and down, and upside down - I I am suprised that RED fail to target/recognise one of their key markets - S35mm sensor + High DR capabilities, the FF35 brain will do the job, but a lot of the sensor will remain unused - and it doesn´t feel like a commitment to filmmakers who use P/L optics.

You can get an estimate here http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=23770 as to how much sensor will not be used if you put a PL mount on an FF35 EPIC.

Again, I really think the amount of sensor you are throwing away was included for free. If RED scrapped that extra space on the FF35 and released an S35 Monstro how much do you think it would cost? I just can't see it being anywhere near the price of the $28k Mysterium X. The Mysterium X upgrade for the RED One costs $4,500. If the Monstro sensor is a similar increase in price that would make the S35 Monstro $32,500, only $500 cheaper then the FF35!

I think you just have to not feel bad about not using the whole FF35 sensor. You definitely aren't throwing money away. If you really feel guilty about ignoring those extra pixels throw a Nikon or Canon lens on there and take some gorgeous 24MP full frame stills!

 

[Lars Wikstrom]

Interesting. I have a few questions now since I don't have a camera yet.

With lenses being the same. Is the quality of the 3K $2500 brain with 2/3 sensor going to be of equal image quality of lets say the S35 at 3K?

Red has changed the detail page. When they first released it a few of them were compatible with Nikon and Canon lenses. This appears to have been removed from all cameras details. Does this mean they all will have it or they are deciding which cameras will be able to?

Thanks you everyone who explained your reasons for the need for multi-brain format. I don't think I am completely sold/understand why there needs to be things like 9K cameras. It makes me feel like I am missing something that other people get that I don't. My work flow is Shoot, drop into Final Cut Pro to edit and then convert or output to what ever media I need. If I ever want to output a project to film I want to make sure I shoot 4K. Anything more is over kill unless I am wanting to crop the image. Never done it but this info comes from friends that have worked for ILM, Orphanage and other VFX houses that normally output graphics at 2K to film.

Unless someone is making a 9K projector or LCD TV or something I can't see the real purpose of having something like that with out having to down convert it to use it? Examples of 9K use would be great!

Again, my 2 cents. Thanks for the constructive feed back!!!

-Lars

 

[Erik Bien]

Again, I ain't no DP, but (for example) I can imagine the 617 being quite useful for VFX plates as well as Jumbotron-style advertising/architectural installations/signage.

 

[Justin O'Neill]

With lenses being the same. Is the quality of the 3K $2500 brain with 2/3 sensor going to be of equal image quality of lets say the S35 at 3K?

RED is keeping some details under wraps but as far as I know the 3k sensor is exactly the same as the 5k sensor except for size. Once the image is captured by the sensor though, you have higher bit rate compression options on the more expensive cameras. Keep in mind even the 3k Scarlet bit rate will be higher then the current RED One uses.

The 9k and 28k cameras are definitely for specialized situations. I think the most common will be for VFX plates for bigger budget films. VFX guys will love to have that 28k to play around with. The extra vertical resolution of the 9k camera will be great for dome footage and IMAX. I'm not sure if anamorphic lenses can take advantage of the full 9k sensor. We've had a lot of crazy requests for special events footage where they set up 5 HD projectors horizontally side by side for example. 9k will be great for that. Not everyone will have use for these cameras but I know a lot of our clients can't wait for that extra resolution.

 

[Chris Hagan]

that´s just uncalled for.

I didn't intend to offend you so I'm sorry if I did.

As a little guy looking forward to the gigantic leap in technology offered at the prosumer price points I get discouraged with the big boys express that there are too many option in the Red lineup.

When have options ever been a bad thing? It appears Red has positioned their upcoming lineup for anyone and everyone interested in Red. It's an exciting time to be a filmmaker.

 

[Lars Wikstrom]

I have done visual EFX work in the past. I worked on Spy Kids 3 in 3D and had to work with 2 1080p plates as a compositor. It was nice working with large clean plates even though render times were a pain in the A$$ when you are on a time schedule.

The possible things you mentioned for the 9K are some of the things that I thought about too from using multi projection monitors and so on. But also like I thought it is a very narrow band of people that will put the camera to those extremes, but they exist.

So or me then, the most I will ever perhaps do is 35mm film output where a 4K would work just fine. I'll keep an eye out for the compression that you are talking about to see if 3K will be different from all the cameras.

Thanks!

-Lars