Red shoot today

[Stephen Williams]

i actually meant: the big brother is watching you.. ehehehehe

edit
hey, not you rickie.. since your jan crittenden cowgirl times, i'm used to love you..
now, respect.. respecting you.. you're definitely not an asshole..

Hi,

Hardly, Emanuel posted a link.

Stephen

 

[David Battistella]

The issue seems to be one of difference of perspective.

I'd say it was more this issue that when he did post some other users suggested that it was inappropriate to be aired RED problems on a public forum. That kinda got the debate rolling..

Let's select a balance that gives the Red guys an opportunity to render the issue moot before it requires an expensive media relations campaign to set straight.

The Red guys have been straight dealers. They deserve a fighting chance.

I agree with this. If the camera is beta and still going through major evaluations (which I would say it is because they released it as an MOS, not fully enabled camera) then just call this the beta release. We have come to accept beta releases as being "buggy", it's par for the course.

Some people will shoot a feature on a beta camera (including Steven Soderberg) and some will shoot, test and evaluate until the camera is fully enabled. Not everyone will have a member of the RED team on set, but they will have the support they need as Beta testers. With "beta testing phase" as the "norm" until they hit official release I think everyone will be a bit more relaxed about things.

I believe many people outside the initial release team understood that it was not fully feature enabled, but were thinking most of these "bug" were worked out over the summer.

David

 

[Seung Han]

Jim has posted a sticky airing all the reported bugs. I think its very gracious of the RED TEAM to put themselves in a position like this, it shows that they respect us as part of the process as well as validate the feedback of this community. We should in turn respect their hard work and diligence by making sure people who are not active participants of Reduser.net are not getting fed misinformation and outdated rumours. I am not talking about censorship but just common sense in terms of following the obvious channels of communication that early adopters like Shawn and Gibby are supporting.

As much as I want to know everything about the camera, I really don't want Jim and his people spending their time on spin control. I would much rather have them use their energies and talents on fine tuning the camera. Just think about how much most companies spend on their marketing department as oppose to their R&D. It would turn any consumer into a cynic.

So, Jim, himself, has posted this sticky and said it will be continually updated. Bugs and errors is now a transparent process. I think the least we can do for this type of honesty when so much is riding on perception is actively nip rumours and misinformation in the bud by pointing people in the right direction in this community as well as other communities where RED is in discussion. I am not talking about flame wars or blind enthusiasm for RED but actively educating people who are getting the wrong information or fixating on old issues. Since we want real time information on problems that will become irrelevant, we should make sure this information does not stick somewhere out there, sit around and get moldy. Mold is hard to get rid off and it smells bad...

 

[Roberto B]

Hi,

Hardly, Emanuel posted a link.

Stephen

stephen, what i meant is.. once jim classified two specimens.. hecklers and fanboys.. i'd add a new category.. the non-assholes..

 

[Desert Rune]

this thread is extremely depressing... on all levels.

 

[Roberto B]

when you can't get another solution, here is what the psychiatrics are used to recommend to their depression disorder patients:



:innocent:

 

[overlandfilms]

Jim and the team have been transparent through the research and development phase, encouraging a collaborative dialog.

The original post was candid, from a known poster who is a customer by extension.

Those who are using the camera today and those who are still in line should be able to receive real-world posts from the field that aren't edited or censored to protect the corporate interests. Naturally...

If it is slander or libel, shut it down, but I really think this intelligent and pragmatic community of owner-operators benefits from an honest and transparent sharing of information now that the camera is out there and working.

We all have a good feeling for what RED is doing behind the scenes to pro-actively resolve known issues. Getting them known doesn't have to be a secret-society operation either.

 

[Michael Schrengohst]

90 second power up??! Is that normal for these cameras? That's scary. Did they stick some sort of Linux OS into this thing, with a full OS boot-up? This camera, I like the specs and all, but I'm getting concerned that it might be a 10 pound magnesium case filled with some spaghetti solutions.

P.S. - I think bugs and bad experiences need to be posted to these forums so that people who are in mission critical need of stability can understand the potential issues before they pay out their money.

P.P.S. - If Red is finding more bugs than anticipated at this point in the project, or are falling behind on their scheduled features, then they should consider hiring a few more developers onto their team instead of sliding the shipping dates back too much.

I would much rather have 10 pounds of hot spaghetti and be able to add
cutting edge spaghetti then get 3 year old cheese slices that go moldy.

 

[Shawn Nelson]

seems to me it's hot.. very hot.. running quite well.. a hit.. even mentioned on cinematography.com.. look out, fanboys.. the big brother is watching us..

http://www.cinematography.com/forum2004/index.php?s=&showtopic=25606&view=findpost&p=194052

Interesting...not the first time I've been specifically mentioned derogatively over there. They also direct link to three of my footage clips and comment.

 

[Roberto B]

stephen, what i meant is.. once jim classified two specimens.. hecklers and fanboys.. i'd add a new category.. the non-assholes..

it's open:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4698

 

[Rick Darge]

another one.

 

[Roberto B]

no post at all?..

 

[Mark B.]

Ever heard of the Mythical Man Month?

Put simply, you can't get 9 women to produce one child in one month...

Ah, but consider the possibilities of 9 women who are well-versed in genetic engineering.

No, but seriously, if Red wants to produce 9 babies in 9 months, they really should have at least 9 women involved in the project.

 

[mezmo]

Crap.. I, by know means meant to create this kind of shit-storm. .

Hi Rgd,
Don't feel bad about this, bound to happen at some point.
Never be afraid to say what you think, keeping quiet is a bigger
problem IMHO.
Not at all suprised that early Reds have a few problems,its the first
45 out the door for this rather small and inexperienced company.
But Jim has 5 of his own to back these up and if 10% have problems
that's normal for a company like this.
This is an interesting time for Red as it gears up to produce another
1950 odd cameras.
Be sure that the company will grow and quality control will become
an artform at Red as it is with other large producers of digital
imaging technology.
At the end of this process the failure rate out the factory door may
only be 1 in 200 or better.
Don't think Sony and Pannie don't produce lemons. I had an early 900
die on a night shoot for 3 hours at about 2am in the morning. Very ugly.
The camera was relaced by Sony because the fault was a component on
one of the main boards.
The Genesis cacked it's pants more than once on the last Superman movie.
Red is a new camera from a new and emerging company and like the similar SI 2K it has
to earn it's place in the industry over time.
It may take another 12 months to get these cameras and the systems that
go with them reliable and mostly fault free.
Low cost Digital Cinema will get there eventually.
Hang in there and speak freely. Mezmo

 

[Mark B.]

Hi Rgd,
At the end of this process the failure rate out the factory door may
only be 1 in 200 or better.

I think a useful thing to figure out is whether the problems have been created due to a flaw in the system programming or the hardware. That'll help in predicting the number of anomalous problems we might see in the future.

 

[dino g]

As one of the first 50, i am very entertained by this thread.

first, whom rented this camera? where were they?

this is a great example of why these first 50 or maybe even the first 100 should only be rented in the presence of their owners.

there was a tech-training day, it was called red-day and all the owners that wanted to show up and learn, did. it was a great experience, I had matt, whom designed most of the external components of the camera, personally hang with me for two hours configuring my camera and answering questions. also during that time jim and jarred came by my work area and just hung out too and answered questions.

they let us stay there until we were 100% satisfied with the cameras and felt like we knew everything we needed to know to be able to start shooting, if the person that rented the camera did not do that, then it is not red's fault.

did the person who bought the camera ever test it before renting it out?

I suggest to 50-100, shoot 20 CF cards worth of data before you take it out to a client, make sure it works perfectly, and if it doesn't, call jarred, sean, jim, matt; THEY WILL ANSWER THEIR CELL Phones 24/7, trust me they have answered my calls.

jim has repeatedly said this is not a SONY or PANASONIC camera, it is a work in progress and i suggest that those that can't hang with that proposition should bail on their spot and let someone with a bit more patience and understanding take their cameras.

we have rented our camera out once so far to a director and a dp that fell deeply in love with it over the 12 hours we were on set and they fell even more in love once they got home the next day and started to screen the footage. moreover, they called praising me for being so hands on during the shoot, despite the fact that i did not charge some astronomical DIT fee for being on set.

buy your camera, rent it out, but be there and be the expert on set, no one else will have more experience with your camera than you. does your computer ever crash, do you know why it does, do you know the steps it takes to get it working again...of course you do, it's yours and it worked perfectly until that one day when something happened and you trouble shooted it for 6 hours and figured out a work-around, so you never had to deal with it again. this is the same situation, except unlike computers, you can call the owner of the company on his cell phone and he will deal with your problem himself or pass the phone directly to one of his guys whom will deal with it immediately, where else does that happen on this planet, i challenge anyone to name one other company that has sales over 5 million dollars a year that has that kind of customer service.

the bottom line is that this is a new experience for every single person on planet earth. and to let the camera just go out and hope for the best does a dis-service to us all.

as an owner i am finding that my role is part camera owner, part rental house and part salesperson for the red. i love being in that position and am taking the role serious, learning everything i can about what the camera can and cant do, scouring the boards for insight from other owners (including the founder et. al.); because at the end of the day if i am in santa monica on a bluff and a person walks by that knows what it is, i suddenly become the one person that "knows it all", so i better be ready.

why should i care, because i want the camera to keep progressing, cause if this is the worst it gets, i cant wait to see the future. because i want producers to request the cameras, i want DP's and Director's to insist on the camera, i want every tv show and feature film originated on this format so the cinematic experience can be the best it can be.

we all want to see what the director has in their mind, - can't do that with 35mm; because dust and coca-cola finger prints by 20 something non-union projectionists at multiplexes could give a crap about your cinematic experience so they treat that print like S#!^ and 5 screenings past the opening one has a print that is at 60% of the intended brightness, this camera changes that equation, forever!

if you cant see that you have not been paying attention, DCI approved 2k projectors when they really wanted just 4k; but had no way of enforcing that because in 2001, there were no 4k cameras on the horizon; in 6 months when there are 4k features in movie theatres acquired with red and projected by the SONY 4k using a proper playback device, audience members will demand that and only that alchemy.

long live red, shame on the renter for being absent and not letting the rentee know the rules of the camera; in my experience, jarred or jim or sean or matt or someone would have driven from wherever with a backup and been there in less than an hour, why do you think they all drive sports cars?

RED OWNERS be present, we are in this together, one bad experience and you get 12 pages of BS, and a lot of misunderstanding; future owners, learn your camera before you pimp it out, this is not an panasonic hd-wanna-be; there are no excuses for the image quality and no p2 rape the buyer flash cards either, this is a serious professional camera, and it comes with responsibility, so be responsible and don't treat it like a surf board that you'll lend to anyone cause it already has some dings..it's a RED...

drinking the kool-aide since 9:03 AM 4/24/06.

 

[Frank Mirbach]

Well written ! Congratulations, you´re very right !

 

[liquidigital]

Everyone makes very good points, but the fact is, RED has had an overwhelmingly positive start. There are bound to be hiccups. Look what Canon is going through right now with the 1D Mark III. Read the boards at dpreview. Canon, Nikon, or any other camera company will typically release mulitple versions of firmware fixing bugs over the course of a camera's release. Not a big deal. And it truly amazes me that you all are offered the cell phone number of the company's owner. No one does that.

The reality is this (feel free to post this on those other boards) the footage is stunning. Technically there's enough information to tailor it to look however you want aesthetically. I think you have to have a grasp on color grading and post to understand this. Those that don't will be the critics. No prob, people used to think the world was flat too.

Now, let's see some more footage.

 

[metropilot]

Crap.. I, by know means meant to create this kind of shit-storm. .

It´s the nature of such a Forum that these :angry03: rants happen.

No matter if the users are grown up industry professionals or 13 year old hardcore gamers I guess.

Once out of control a subject like this normally get´s closed by an admin.
At least when the posters are matching the 13 year old hardcore gamer catergory... :w00t:

 

[kunal2]

Hmm why not embedding the camera with a sort of battery which continuously power the camera for a few minutes during a sudden power failure ? enough time to write to storage device.

The camera manual PDF given to those who received cameras, Chapter 8 Managing Digital Media, has specific paragraphs on "Media Formatting" and "Re-formatting a previously used Compact Flash".

The same chapter also has a paragraph entitled "Removing Media". There is a button the back of the camera named "UNDO". To unmount the digital media, you have to press and hold the UNDO key and then press the "EXIT" key until the GUI reports "Safe to Remove" or status display reports "NoN" in the media status.

Then there's this warning that follows:

"Un-mounting ensures that power is removed from the digital media and open files are closed. Physical removal of CF media or disconnecting a RED-Drive without first un-mounting it may not cause any damage, but does increase the risk of file corruption if data is being recorded"

Brad Hagen, owner of RED 15 & 16, even tested unplugging one of his REDs during recording to see how much data was lost, and only lost a few seconds of data. Here’s his post on that:

“With the Red camera, a concern was what would happen if the Red lost power or the camera "crashed" during a recording to CF (compact flash) or a drive for that matter. As soon as we got our cameras on the test bench my concern turned to curiosity and I simulated a power failure by pulling the plug, the power plug, during a recording. The result? The data was fine except for the last 3 to 7 seconds. The length of bad bits or lost data varied depending on the shooting length, the longer the file the larger the bad bits. The most we ever had were 7 seconds and that was on a 3 minute recording. This is GREAT news. The RED team obviously thought about real world use and this possibility so the files written are sectioned so data loss is minimal. Think of it as similar to changing lenses on an old Bolex - the film in the gate is ruined but the rest of the reel is fine.

If anyone else had tried similar tests with their Red cameras I would be interested in their experience; please share.”

Link: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4660

What I’m saying is:

1) Owners and renters need to read the camera manual and make sure they are operating the camera correctly

2) If there is a problem in the field, and you’re sure you’ve been operating the camera as per the manual instructions, the fastest way to get your problem defined and solved is to contact RED

3) If RED is aware of the problem and is actively solving it, then that’s what we as owners/renters of the camera are after.

4) If it is an individual problem, or an operator error problem, then its up to us as owners/renters to get up to speed with the camera

5) If it is an acknowledged firmware or hardware glitch then RED has been very open about talking about those