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Red scarlet X vs ursa mini 4.6k

J

Joe Cage

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Hey,

I am looking for a new camera, what camera should you guys recommend. A Red scarlet x(as ravens are not available this year) or ursa mini 4.6k. Used prices are somewhat similar.
I think the ursa mini 4.6k has more high framerate options and better DR. But I have not found that many good video's with it, a small amount were really good. But that is probably more fault of the users handling it.
Maybe the red is more easy to grade then the ursa mini 4.6k?

Any recommendations?

Thanks!
 
Joe Cage said:
I have not found that many good video's with it...
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There's a reason for that, hehe. But in all seriousness, you're asking the million dollar question and one that I don't think most people would touch with a 10' pole. The Scarlet-X and URSA mini are two very different cameras and you need to dive in and do your research to see what will best fit your needs. There are other costs as well that go beyond the brains like field monitors, memory, batteries and battery life, portability etc... I would suggest renting both cameras first and seeing what you're getting into.

Personally speaking, Blackmagic is just OK, and I put it in the same category of a DSLR. You can get great footage out of anything if you know what you're doing... for example, the last trailer I shot was on a Panasonic GH4... bet you cant tell... www.TheComingConvergence.com
 
Brent G Miller Jr said:
Personally speaking, Blackmagic is just OK, and I put it in the same category of a DSLR. You can get great footage out of anything if you know what you're doing... for example, the last trailer I shot was on a Panasonic GH4... bet you cant tell... www.TheComingConvergence.com
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I won't agree on this count, specially with Ursa/ Mini and Ursa/ Mini 4.6. They have lovely shooting codecs (all flavours of Prores and Raw). Unlike DSLRs, all Blackmagic cameras shoot at least 10 bit 422, while the DSLRs shoot 8 bit 420. That's a huge advantage.
 
Yeah I don't know how one could compare an UM4.6 to a DSLR... They are cinema cameras, they don't shoot highly GOP compressed codecs or line-skip or have no pro I/O or forget about rolling shutter like some DSLRs.

BM makes very flawed cameras but they are spec'ed well and if you know the pitfalls they can shoot amazing work. The UM4.6 is probably one of the best values out there from an image standpoint. Just look at the work John Brawley and Captain Hook did and you'd probably be surprised how much out there is being shot on them without realizing it. You just have to find one with a good sensor among other things...
 
Ursa Mini isn't really a reliable camera. Great when it functions though!!!!
 
Subrata Sen said:
I won't agree on this count, specially with Ursa/ Mini and Ursa/ Mini 4.6. They have lovely shooting codecs (all flavours of Prores and Raw). Unlike DSLRs, all Blackmagic cameras shoot at least 10 bit 422, while the DSLRs shoot 8 bit 420. That's a huge advantage.
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Good points but GH4 and GH5 both shoot 10-bit 4:2:2. We've really pushed grading in post with the GH4 and it holds up surprisingly well though it doesn't hold a candle to our SW footage. The UM46 is indeed a good exception to the black magic lineup but still referring to them in relation to a DSLR was more regarding a reference to build quality, features and sensors rather than just the codec. I figured anyone can see what codec and bitrate you can shoot and already know roughly what to expect in post.
 
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I will tell you that my Scarlet MX has many miles on it and I still use it as an A or B cam depending on the shoot. With good glass at 4k, it just flat out works! Of course you will miss out on the high frame rates and anything new in the RED cycle but it is a solid camera. Now a days you have to choose a camera that checks the most boxes for your use. All I can add is that many feature films have been shot with the MX sensor.
 
Brent G Miller Jr said:
The UM46 is indeed a good exception to the black magic lineup but still referring to them in relation to a DSLR was more regarding a reference to build quality, features and sensors rather than just the codec. I figured anyone can see what codec and bitrate you can shoot and already know roughly what to expect in post.
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Build quality wise I'd rather trust a DSLR in a rugged shooting condition. BM products are bad in that respect. But they do produce good colour and the footage is extremely flexible in post.
 
I've owned a scarlet MX for a long time but have recently been shooting with BM4.6K mini's.

The image from the BM is insanely good. Though the fact the screen doesn't flip makes it a real pain for mounting in gimbals, whereas the scarlet is a joy for that kind of thing.

The Ursa mini is a much bigger clunkier camera, though it has great colours and insane DR for the price.

I think you should ask yourself what do you want from your camera to make the decision: do I want something smaller I can strip down or am I happier with something bigger as I dont use gimbals much. Scarlet mx is a much more versatile camera.

Good luck!

Craig Lees
UK
 
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Thanks for all replies!

I think I will go the ursa mini 4.6k route unless I find a really good scarlet mx deal. IQ is the most important feature for me, a bit more clumsy is not a let down. I can get it to work on a ronin-m with an external monitor.
 
You'll never get the Ursa mini to work on a Ronin M (getting it t work on a full size ronin was bad enough!) but you'll want to throw it in the bin/ smack your head against a wall a few times. Honestly, if you shoot a lot of gimbal stuff, buy a used scarlet MX, they're much more versatile / great at stripping down.

Craig Lees
UK
 
There are a lot of videos of people using their ursa mini on a dji ronin m, so it is doable. Now the ursa mini pro ticks a lot of boxes.
 
Mini pro.
Inbuilt filterwheel!
12g output.
Also talk of a SSD module recorder.

Mike Brennan
 
I agree with the BM Mini Pro vote here. I love working with the RED and being in the ecosystem, but if you're aiming to get bang out of your buck, the price point of the BM Mini pro, with all of it's features is really a better investment than the older Scarlet X IMHO. If you're talking bout buying into the price point of the Scarlet W system, that's a different story. I love the Scarlet W.

For the most part, I've heard mixed experiences from Black Magic users, both positive and negative. In general people out there are able to reliably get good imagery from Black Magic cameras. This time around with the Mini Pro release, it feels like the company is really trying to listen to their consumers, which is always nice. I'm sure there are tons of Black Magic haters out there who wouldn't give that camera the time of day, but the fact of the matter is at that price point, they're packing in a ton of features that makes the camera a great contender. Time will tell though, once people start using it, whether it's a jack of all trades and master of none kinda camera.
 
To me it comes down to sensor performance. The MX sensor has just a touch more range from what I have seen. I primarily shoot with available light, so, the bmc cameras can get you into trouble a little faster in my limited experience. I may be wrong, but isn't even the latest bmcc the same sensor as the ones before it?


But sure, bang for buck, I may have to agree, the black magic's have a lot of bang for buck... they just aren't better, imho. I may be wrong, but that is my experience so far.
 
James Sielaff said:
The MX sensor has just a touch more range from what I have seen… I may be wrong, but isn't even the latest bmcc the same sensor as the ones before it?
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What sensor before it?

Yes, the new Mini Pro 4.6k has the same sensor as the previous Mini 4.6k. But that is a totally different sensor from other BMD sensors, such as their previous 4k sensors.

My gut feeling is that BMD's 4.6k sensor is stronger than the original MX. For someone who isn't invested and want to get started for around $8000, I think BMD is a good way to go now that they have added some usability features like NDs and so on. I also think the Mini Pro looks pretty user friendly with button/switch access to most important settings.

On the other hand, it's a good idea to keep one eye on eBay—every now and then you'll find a pretty loaded Scarlet MX package for similar money. "Problem" of course being that even if you might feel good about investing in the RED 'system', it will be the old system and most things won't carry over well to DSMC[SUP]2[/SUP]
 
Larry Cheuk said:
I agree with the BM Mini Pro vote here. I love working with the RED and being in the ecosystem, but if you're aiming to get bang out of your buck, the price point of the BM Mini pro, with all of it's features is really a better investment than the older Scarlet X IMHO. If you're talking bout buying into the price point of the Scarlet W system, that's a different story. I love the Scarlet W.

For the most part, I've heard mixed experiences from Black Magic users, both positive and negative. In general people out there are able to reliably get good imagery from Black Magic cameras. This time around with the Mini Pro release, it feels like the company is really trying to listen to their consumers, which is always nice. I'm sure there are tons of Black Magic haters out there who wouldn't give that camera the time of day, but the fact of the matter is at that price point, they're packing in a ton of features that makes the camera a great contender. Time will tell though, once people start using it, whether it's a jack of all trades and master of none kinda camera.
Click to expand...

As a Blackmagic user, I can vouch that my experience with BMD cameras are mixed.

1. They produce wonderful colours if you expose correctly, but if you shoot one stop under you run into lots of grains, even FPN.
2. My experience with their 4.6 sensor is, you have to stick to 800 iso to get the best out of the sensor. Though the camera can go upto 1600 iso, shooting with that iso is not a great idea.
3. Also, some 4.6 sensors have reported pink/magenta corners in the image, which is difficult to treat in post. Some images show cross-hatching too in dark areas in some post-production system.
4. I never found the cameras to be rugged enough to handle a gruelling day of shooting. My BMPC had a problem with loose power connection, I had to live with that. If you search the forums, you will find something or the other failing.

But yes, if everything goes right, Blackmagic cameras do produce superb images. And I sincerely hope they fixed the problems in Ursa Mini Pro.
 
I've had good experiences with Ursa Mini 4.6ks. It used to be a bit like gambling when it first came out with magenta sensors and fixed pattern noises, amongst other things, but they've gotten better recently. I shot a feature on one early this year and we really roughed it up, shooting in the desert, the beach, and in vehicles, almost all completely handheld.

Between the MX and 4.6k, the 4.6k most definitely looks better and has more dynamic range. I shot the feature with all natural and available light with only a few scenes where we had to use a bounce or negative fill. This is all true as long as you stick to 800 ISO, which IMO is the only useable ISO. 1600 is very noisy and you lose a little dynamic range at 400 and lower.
 
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