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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

red Scarlet dragon price and availability

Terry VerHaar said:
Not sure if this has been explicitly addressed by RED: I am planning to trade in my Scarlet for an Epic ($9500) in the next few months. I am hoping - but don't know for sure - that another upgrade to Dragon, from Epic, will still be possible for me at some point in the future. Anyone know if RED has posted either way?
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This is basically the same thing I'm wondering about. I'm going to be doing more indie work than any thing else, so a regular Scarlet-X is in my plans and budget. I would love to be able to upgrade to Epic and Dragon in the future, but it's not a near future thing, hence I'm wondering what will happen to our upgrade options.

At the same time, if they do come out with a SD, and it's at a relatively cheap price (less than the combined cost of a Scarlet now with a Dragon upgrade), then I might be able to hold out for that. It's not a rush, but it sure will be nice when RED announces their plans. It's certainly a difficult position, even from my lesser point of view, but I'm not too worried. I can patiently await the news. :D
 
Terry VerHaar said:
Not sure if this has been explicitly addressed by RED: I am planning to trade in my Scarlet for an Epic ($9500) in the next few months. I am hoping - but don't know for sure - that another upgrade to Dragon, from Epic, will still be possible for me at some point in the future. Anyone know if RED has posted either way?
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The key thing to keep in mind is "Executed" means your camera is marked for return to RED in the upgrade path you choose. If you Execute a camera, but the model you buy has no upgrade path, you're at the end of the road. This is not the case for the EpicMX or ScarletMX, as both have an upgrade path. However, the Scarlet-D has no upgrade path, which means it's basically executed from day 1.

Just received my EpicMX via trade in from Scarlet. I was told I can upgrade from EpicMX to Dragon (but only after 90 days of ownership) and I can also get the special price on the Rocket-X if I order it with the Dragon upgrade. I don't think anyone has said how long that upgrade window will last.

I think this is the best route to the Dragon from Scarlet, because you get the EpicMX now for $9.5K and spend another $9.5K to upgrade to Dragon later. The other option is to wait out all those Epic MX upgrades, then pay the same $19K all at once. Seems smarter to shoot EpicMX until I get a shot at the Dragon, and I'm betting it will be about the same timeframe as if I had waited for the Scarlet upgrades to begin.

I'm not sure if Scarlet-D is a good buy or not. On one hand, it's a dead end for upgrades, but on the other hand it may end up being a special camera only available to those who upgraded a ScarletMX. I wanted the best camera available from RED, that's why I chose the Scarlet-EpicMX-Dragon path.
 
I do agree that there are a lot of unknowns. The race to the bottom is definately concerning here and everywhere, but it really isn't something that influences my decission. I personally would rather pay a premium to someone who values the art in their craft and trully cares about the quality of the end product rather than someone who might be ok at what they do at a cheeper price but do not value the art. Hence why I choose RED and a Pedron cigar rather than other cheeper alternatives even though they might be "good enough". Still valid points though.
 
Jeff Whitehurst said:
....However, the Scarlet-D has no upgrade path, which means it's basically executed from day 1.
...
I'm not sure if Scarlet-D is a good buy or not. On one hand, it's a dead end for upgrades, but on the other hand it may end up being a special camera only available to those who upgraded a ScarletMX. I wanted the best camera available from RED, that's why I chose the Scarlet-EpicMX-Dragon path.
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Could you cite a source for this? Is this just an assumption you are making? Are you assuming that because they eventually EOL'd R1 after the MX upgrade? They still gave an option to upgrade after that sensor upgrade... and Scarlet is not R1. As far as I can tell Scarlet stays side by side with Epic since it seems it is very valuable to have a lower end product to use lower-binned components in for higher yields and better market share.

I see no reason why they would stop offering upgrades for Scarlet-D... That would go against obsolescence obsolete unless they made it clear that Scarlet-D was a dead end with no future trade-in's before people executed their Scarlets, which they did not and have not to my knowledge.

Seems to me like it's always a good idea to get RED's tech upgrades since it potentially makes your older depreciated camera a new one again and possibly briefly quite high-valued in the used market due to low supply if you end up deciding you want to sell it (for example if it looks like RED might release Scarlet-D at a lower price than expected in the near future).
 
Jeff Whitehurst said:
... I was told I can upgrade from EpicMX to Dragon (but only after 90 days of ownership) ....
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Thanks Jeff for bringing that up.



That is the fist time I see this information, anyone from RED can confirm this? What do I miss in the FAQ or elsewhere? I was never told something like that.

I'm aware that at one point the option for a trade in/upgrade will be stopped (after announcement).

Thanks in advanced.
 
Noah Yuan-Vogel said:
Could you cite a source for this? Is this just an assumption you are making? Are you assuming that because they eventually EOL'd R1 after the MX upgrade? They still gave an option to upgrade after that sensor upgrade... and Scarlet is not R1. As far as I can tell Scarlet stays side by side with Epic since it seems it is very valuable to have a lower end product to use lower-binned components in for higher yields and better market share

I see no reason why they would stop offering upgrades for Scarlet-D... That would go against obsolescence obsolete unless they made it clear that Scarlet-D was a dead end with no future trade-in's before people executed their Scarlets, which they did not and have not to my knowledge.

Seems to me like it's always a good idea to get RED's tech upgrades since it potentially makes your older depreciated camera a new one again and possibly briefly quite high-valued in the used market due to low supply if you end up deciding you want to sell it (for example if it looks like RED might release Scarlet-D at a lower price than expected in the near future).
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When you do the sensor upgrade regardless of epic scarlet or redone. The camera gets excuted for that new sensor upgrade. And is no longer able to hardware upgrades like a new sensor. Each camera body is living through 2 generations of sensors is as close to obsolescence obsolete we can get. If it kept going on and on it wouldn't benifit us at all. Having tomorrow's technology forced to work with yeasterdays. Sometimes it's better to start from scratch, then doing a frame off restoration. Lets all be happy that RED is doing the best it can to protect our investments for as long as technology will let them. I'm exited to see what will RED do to replace the epic one day when the time comes. But that's a long way from us now.
 
Personally I was at the top of the Scarlet Dragon list with a time stamp two minutes after it went up...Finally gave in and got an Epic. I like the faster frame rates and the warranty duration is a sweet addition. I think based on my interests its the right choice for me. So you all should be happy because you just moved up one spot at the very least :p

As for stand alone pricing, whether the line continues in the future, etc all of that is conjecture for the time being and I have heard much to do about stuff none of us really know, that even admittedly Red is still figuring out. I finally gave up on putting any faith in any of the conjecture and bought an Epic instead lol...

But the good thing is the door has yet to be closed for any of you, and that you can still weigh your options up until they actually process your order. I am sure as we get closer to it actually shipping more details will become available. I can imagine that Red is facing a difficult situation logistically between all the upgrades and then trying to position a stand alone model at a price point that is in line with their other models while being competitive in this proverbial race to the bottom that everyone is talking about with some of the lesser offerings by other companies...

Though I still believe not all 4k is created equal, the same way not all codecs are created as robust as others, and that cheaper 4k prosumer offerings don't necessarily translate to be a direct competitor for high end systems like Reds. I am not sure how accurate that theory is in this debate when people refer to price points of supposed competitors. I doubt the Arri guys are out there worried about the BMC, I don't think we need to either...
 
Jeff Whitehurst said:
Sure: "Can I upgrade Scarlet Dragon to Epic Dragon? No"

https://support.red.com/entries/23755892-Can-I-UPGRADE-SCARLET-DRAGON-to-EPIC-DRAGON-
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Right, I know you can't crossgrade that way, but that does not necessarily mean there are won't be any other upgrades or trade-ins offered, does it? Are you thinking that Epic-D owners will have upgrade/trade-in options to the next new thing when Scarlet-D owners will not? I guess I'm not sure I see any evidence or statement from RED stating that Epic-D is more likely to have further upgrade options than Scarlet... Doesn't seem like RED has said either is an end of the line for upgrade paths, and in the past with R1 they were quite clear that if you didnt trade up to Epic you wouldn't be getting any other opportunities to stay in an upgrade path.
 
Dr. Sassi said:
Thanks Jeff for bringing that up.
That is the fist time I see this information, anyone from RED can confirm this? What do I miss in the FAQ or elsewhere? I was never told something like that.
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I got this straight from my Bomb Squad Rep, so it's the deal. I didn't know either. Only after I placed the order for the Scarlet>EpicMX upgrade did I find out.
Probably put in place so guys don't try to skip the line by upgrading their Scarlets to EpicMX, then ship it back for the Dragon upgrade the next day.
 
FWIW, to those considering changing from RED to another camera to save a couple thousand dollars (maybe, theoretically) - not sure about you but I have a pretty good investment in support equipment for my RED DSMC system. Given the structured advantages of REDCode Raw and the ongoing development and support RED has shown, it is going to take some pretty significant disruptions from some other manufacturer to dislodge me from the RED landscape. :smiley:
 
Jon Carr said:
When you do the sensor upgrade regardless of epic scarlet or redone. The camera gets excuted for that new sensor upgrade. And is no longer able to hardware upgrades like a new sensor. Each camera body is living through 2 generations of sensors is as close to obsolescence obsolete we can get. If it kept going on and on it wouldn't benifit us at all. Having tomorrow's technology forced to work with yeasterdays. Sometimes it's better to start from scratch, then doing a frame off restoration. Lets all be happy that RED is doing the best it can to protect our investments for as long as technology will let them. I'm exited to see what will RED do to replace the epic one day when the time comes. But that's a long way from us now.
Click to expand...

Right, I understand that, but for R1, there continued to be trade-in options after the MX upgrade, that's what I'm talking about. So far obsolescence obsolete has meant "we will give you an upgrade/trade-in path for your camera until you choose to opt-out of the path provided". So the implication seems to be that Scarlet-D will have some upgrade or trade-in value toward the next thing a couple years down the road just as Epic-D will have. So you aren't necessarily missing anything with a Scarlet-D unless what you really wanted was an Epic-D before the next RED product/tech (assuming there is one).
 
Noah Yuan-Vogel said:
Right, I know you can't crossgrade that way, but that does not necessarily mean there are won't be any other upgrades or trade-ins offered, does it? Are you thinking that Epic-D owners will have upgrade/trade-in options to the next new thing when Scarlet-D owners will not? I guess I'm not sure I see any evidence or statement from RED stating that Epic-D is more likely to have further upgrade options than Scarlet... Doesn't seem like RED has said either is an end of the line for upgrade paths, and in the past with R1 they were quite clear that if you didnt trade up to Epic you wouldn't be getting any other opportunities to stay in an upgrade path.
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Ok, I see where I confused you. I was only talking about the Scarlet-MX>Scarlet-D>Epic-D possibility, which won't happen. Concerning present speculation, I kind of doubt any other upgrades will happen later for Scarlet-D. It is very valid to recognize there's no way to know for certain if you go down that path.
 
Jeff Whitehurst said:
Just received my EpicMX via trade in from Scarlet. I was told I can upgrade from EpicMX to Dragon (but only after 90 days of ownership) and I can also get the special price on the Rocket-X if I order it with the Dragon upgrade. I don't think anyone has said how long that upgrade window will last.
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Jeff - thanks for the succinct summary - and this ^^^ key bit of information. I am totally aware of the dead end situation going to Scarlet Dragon which is why I am also looking to go through Epic for an eventual path to Dragon. I was just looking for some on-the-ground confirmation that an "executed" trade to Epic didn't create an end-of-line situation. Woohoo - the future with RED feels very bright. :coolgleamA:
 
Sounds like a lot of assumptions there :smile5:

No one knows if the trade ins will continue or not. Actually it was me who originally asked about this during the Red One MX to Epic upgrade cycle and I almost got on a proverbial list for it and apologized for it! Ironically Red seemed to have ran with the idea though so far. I don't know if Red will continue to offer trade ins/ups forever with every release. Technically the concept was supposed to be all of us pony up for the new sensor and keep our old ones and Red tries to make our accessories carry over. Somehow it turned into this even better trade in/up deal which has helped a lot of us, myself included, advance from the entry level model to the higher end models.

As for the future, who knows. We have been fortunate to have a trade program and heck if any of us really know if and when that might cease to be and we revert to their original business model of MSRP full priced sensor purchasing. I'd say as long as it makes fiscal sense for Red to do it and resell BT models, it'll hopefully continue the trade in trend. It makes a good island hop strategy for one to slowly climb the ranks to the higher end models without the complications of needing to resell to a third party on your own like other camera manufacturers insist on.
 
Terry VerHaar said:
FWIW, to those considering changing from RED to another camera to save a couple thousand dollars (maybe, theoretically) - not sure about you but I have a pretty good investment in support equipment for my RED DSMC system. Given the structured advantages of REDCode Raw and the ongoing development and support RED has shown, it is going to take some pretty significant disruptions from some other manufacturer to dislodge me from the RED landscape. :smiley:
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Spot on Terry, I think "Obsolescence Obsolete" has as much to do with transferring the accessories as it does with sensors swaps. It was a good feeling seeing that Epic slide right into the place of my Scarlet. Other cameras I've used left me with a box of parts nobody wants anymore. You should see my collection of uw housings I bought that I can't give away now that the camera is outdated...
 
Jeff Whitehurst said:
I got this straight from my Bomb Squad Rep, so it's the deal. I didn't know either. Only after I placed the order for the Scarlet>EpicMX upgrade did I find out.
Probably put in place so guys don't try to skip the line by upgrading their Scarlets to EpicMX, then ship it back for the Dragon upgrade the next day.
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Thanks again. The 90 days would then apply only to new Epics from that "Scarlet-Option". (Edit: I deleted my line here as I mis-understood the initial post ... /edit)
 
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Dr. Sassi said:
Thanks again. The 90 days would then apply only to new Epics from that "Scarlet-Option". Perhaps ordering, paying and getting the Dragon is a wide spread time-frame anyway. We will see, but 90 days straight would be difficult for me.
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Glad to help, although couldn't say what would happen if someone bought an Epic-MX straight out and tried to upgrade before 90 days. I would definitely recommend that questions like this go straight to your BS Rep, but 90 days before any upgrade was the term I agreed to.
 
Jeff thats a good detail to know, thanks very much for telling us! Glad I placed my Epic order now, instead of later...
 
Jeff Whitehurst said:
I got this straight from my Bomb Squad Rep, so it's the deal. I didn't know either. Only after I placed the order for the Scarlet>EpicMX upgrade did I find out.
Probably put in place so guys don't try to skip the line by upgrading their Scarlets to EpicMX, then ship it back for the Dragon upgrade the next day.
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That is highly unlikely to happen anyway. RED has clearly stated that first in line are Epic-M upgrades, then brand-new Epic Dragon new purchases and only then upgrades for Scarlets and Epic-X's...
Given the current status of the Dragon (with early working units in the hands of peeps like PJ and Mark Toia), even if they started to upgrade Epic-M's now, I would not expect Epic-X to start upgrading before 90-days...

Just a thought...

:sifone: Peter
 
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