RED S35 or Panasonic AF100

[Stuart English]

CF and SSD reader

CF and SSD reader

First option: 128 GB SSD, formatted space is probably about 119GB which is 47minutes at 42MB/sec.

If 47minutes is enough, that's $1500 for SSD. Total cost $6,450 with SSD reader.

If you need 94 minutes, that $3,000 for SSD. Total cost is $7,950 with SSD reader.

The above media consumption is only true if you record at a constant 42MB/s. REDCODE is a variable bit rate codec.

And with the smaller frame size you'd probably get equivalent image quality at around 25 MB/s - i.e. 90 min, not 47 min.

Also where are you getting those SSD reader prices from? RED Station for CF or SSD is $500, not $4,950..

http://www.red.com/store/tags/digital_storage

 

[Rick Burnett]

A water pistol? I'd really like to see one that looks like that because I am curious, I have never seen such a thing.

It's funny, because I am in the opposite opinion as you. I really dislike the form factor of the AF100 as it's just repeating a body style I do not like.

What if you want the LCD on the right side?

What if you want to move your viewfinder to a different location, say off axis?

What if you want to move your controls from the back to ANYWHERE else?

The fact is, with the RED design, you can take all the components and move them to where YOU want them to be. Don't want the side handle? Don't use one. Want it longer? Add a battery pack.

After shooting with an HVX200 and a 7D I can tell you from my perspective, I CANNOT wait to have the freedom of the DSLR sized body with the ability to use controls ANYWHERE I want and to move the LCD and REDMOTE anywhere I need. It's a camera design that is truly customizable.

I'll take that ANYDAY over the old outdated design of most of the camera bodies I see in video. They are NOT flexible and don't allow you to customize your rig easily to ANY task you might have.

So thank you RED, for actually being innovative on the body design.

 

[Nelson Alexandre]

Hi Rick,

I didn't meant it literally, and if you want to know, I agree 100% with you regarding every other aspect of your post!

The thing is... I still photograph more with my Nikon F3+MD4 than with my G10. I have a Bauer S 715XL on my hall drawer table just for show off, and I simply love doing vacation films on my Canon 814XLS above all my digital cameras... So don't be angry with my words, I'm still a devoted to classics, even when we are talking about design, or in this case, form that follows function

Don't get me wrong but the part I laugh most on that "sound mixer hell" animation was the "it's a 17000 dollar brick with a noisy fan" part, and I'm not saying RED one is a lousy camera (which I really had the money to buy one), but I must admit that the guy who wrote that has some point in that evaluation.

Anyway... That was a side note as I said, and I really don't mind the form factor if along the way I find the Scarlet the better camera for me. Do you want to share some thoughts about my "other" concerns on that post?

Thanks

 

[Rick Burnett]

I am not sure what you are asking, as this post says S35 not 2/3 or fixed in the title. Comparing the S35 to the AF100 is simple in my opinion, the S35 shoots higher resolution which means you can down convert into 1080p and have a MUCH cleaner image. You can say goodbye to a lot of aliasing and moire. Even if the AF100 uses a new sensor, nothing has indicated it will either shoot at a higher resolution OR that they won't be using binning which is a cheap alternative to reading the full sensor that produces inferior results.

In addition, the sensor on the AF100 is smaller, so you will have additional crop to your images. For me, I like the S35 size which is what I have in my 7D.

Now, if your question is in regard to the Fixed or 2/3 cinema package, again, you are looking at a higher resolution image. You are looking at being able to pull out a cleaner final product AND not have to concern yourself with moire/aliasing. But, something not discussed is the read/reset times of both these cameras. We just don't know what to expect out of the AF100 yet, however, if you look at the quoted speeds of the Epic and the GH1 which is all we have, it seems that the Red have actually demonstrated faster read/reset which means jello/skew will be reduced.

The biggest problem is that neither the AF100 or the S35 or even the 2/3 are available for ANYONE to compare. We don't know any of these characteristics including dynamic range, low light sensitivity, nothing. Trying to make a decision right now is difficult, but from the information I do know, I plan on getting the fixed first. This way, I'll only need to update the brain to S35 and still keep the fixed package as I am sure it will come in handy for action / vfx sequence footage we will need.

 

[Nelson Alexandre]

I am not sure what you are asking, as this post says S35 not 2/3 or fixed in the title.

Yes but this thread made me think about the 2/3s little brother. I'm now considering that option since it seems that Scarlet 2/3s will hit the market sooner than S35, and besides that, I've came to know that a ready to shoot S35 will cost a lot more than Panasonic's AF100.

 

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

I'm not sure sensor size would be so much of an upside to the AF100.

You would end up spending a lot more money getting sub F2.8 lenses below 50mm if you are so crazed about shallow DOF.

And if you get a constant F4 8x zoom lens the DOF characteristics would be the same as the Fixed Scarlet.

If you go for the 2/3" Fixed Kit you can spend the extra $1250 (if we consider $6000 as the base price of the AF100) on CF cards and an extra battery.

 

[Nelson Alexandre]

I'm not sure sensor size would be so much of an upside to the AF100.

You would end up spending a lot more money getting sub F2.8 lenses below 50mm if you are so crazed about shallow DOF.

That's was exactly my major concern when I wrote post #179

And if you get a constant F4 8x zoom lens the DOF characteristics would be the same as the Fixed Scarlet.

Not quite though but very near. f/5.6 will have the same DOF if the fixed Scarlet will hit the market with a T/2.8 lens. But your previous statement continues to be very true.

If you go for the 2/3" Fixed Kit you can spend the extra $1250 (if we consider $6000 as the base price of the AF100) on CF cards and an extra battery.

Can you elaborate on this? Even now I don't quite get what it's needed (if any), besides what comes in the bundle! For instance... Does it come with an audio module with XLR inputs? The specs says it does but I can find any in the pictures of the camera so far... And can anyone elucidate me if Scarlet's Brain Only option does already come with the REDVOLT battery and travel charger? I can't seem to find it in the Scarlet module prices!

 

[Roei Zilber]

yea it's a bit confusing..
you still have to buy the module XLR for the fixed scarlet.
you do get a mini PL input (like a regular camcorder).
and who says the final scarlet fixed price will be 4750$? is that a fact?

 

[Nelson Alexandre]

yea it's a bit confusing..
you still have to buy the module XLR for the fixed scarlet.

One of my fears... So lets start to add some "greens". Can anyone say how much that module will cost? I can't find it in the RED Store section...

and who says the final scarlet fixed price will be 4750$? is that a fact?

That's true... Has Jannard himself puts it: "Everything in life changes..." so I think we are all relying in the last RED prices predictions...

 

[David Rasberry]

One of my fears... So lets start to add some "greens". Can anyone say how much that module will cost? I can't find it in the RED Store section...



That's true... Has Jannard himself puts it: "Everything in life changes..." so I think we are all relying in the last RED prices predictions...

Look at the Scarlet announcement section.
It has a list of some key modules with estimated prices.
There are two I/O modules: base at $1795 and pro at $2795.
The 1/8" TRS mic connectors on the brain are not like consumer cameras with a single unbalanced stereo input. They are pro grade balanced mono mic inputs with phantom power.

 

[Roei Zilber]

well. personally i can live with the 1/8 (if i won't use more than i mic), so i can save some money.
but it will be interesting to test the sound quality between that and the af100 xlr's..
obviously, if sound quality is of absolute importance, then the 1/8 won't do..

 

[Michael Olsen]

The audio inputs (of which there are two) on the front of each Scarlet are 1/8-inch balanced TRS connectors with 24V phantom power. Purchasing (or making) a small XLR-TRS adapter cable will give you two very useful XLR ports right on the brain. No need to buy an extra module if you just need basic XLR functionality.

RED also mentioned production of "button mics" which seem to be about the size of a quarter and 1/2-inch in thickness with a TRS connector on the back. This would plug directly into one port, giving you a good scratch track, allowing the other port to be used for XLR.

 

[Stuart English]

Sound quality

Sound quality

if sound quality is of absolute importance, then the 1/8 won't do..

As Michael hints, the size of the connector has nothing to do with quality...

... balanced v's unbalanced, pre-amp noise, the A/D bit depth, compression ( if any) determine that.

On RED cameras, the audio connectors are balanced, and audio is recorded as a 24-bit, 48KHz uncompressed signal.

 

[Roei Zilber]

The audio inputs (of which there are two) on the front of each Scarlet are 1/8-inch balanced TRS connectors with 24V phantom power. Purchasing (or making) a small XLR-TRS adapter cable will give you two very useful XLR ports right on the brain. No need to buy an extra module if you just need basic XLR functionality.

RED also mentioned production of "button mics" which seem to be about the size of a quarter and 1/2-inch in thickness with a TRS connector on the back. This would plug directly into one port, giving you a good scratch track, allowing the other port to be used for XLR.

On RED cameras, all audio is recorded at 24-bit, 48KHz uncompressed.


ok, i'm convinced.
sounds good enough for me

thanks

 

[Subhadip Sen]

I have used an Audio Technica XLR-3.5mm adapter in the past, which costs $15. You can get cheap ones for as low as $2 here. I am not sure about quality loss, and neither have I done proper comparative tests, but the end result sounded pretty good to me. Perhaps an audiophile could inform us of the drawbacks of using a XLR-TRS adapter.

Either way, I am not worried about the Fixed not having native XLR ports. Though it would certainly be convenient if it did.

 

[Roei Zilber]

does the brain only scarlet has 1/8 inputs as well?
and what about video output for the scarlet fixed? (HDMI?)

thanks!

 

[Nelson Alexandre]

As Michael hints, the size of the connector has nothing to do with quality...

... balanced v's unbalanced, pre-amp noise, the A/D bit depth, compression ( if any) determine that.

On RED cameras, the audio connectors are balanced, and audio is recorded as a 24-bit, 48KHz uncompressed signal.

Thank for your enlightment Stuart, but can you please share what made the RED team deciding for TRS connectors instead of industry's standard XLR?

Was it size alone that made RED take that call?

And if RED's TRS connectors are balanced and record 24Bit uncompressed, why do I need one of the two I/O modules that you offer, the base one costing $1795 and pro's costing almost twice than that?!

What does a pro sound I/O module have to offer me at almost the price of a Scarlet fixed if it already records uncompress sound as it is???

Thanks

 

[Roei Zilber]

Thank for your enlightment Stuart, but can you please share what made the RED team deciding for TRS connectors instead of industry's standard XLR?

Was it size alone that made RED take that call?

And if RED's TRS connectors are balanced and record 24Bit uncompressed, why do I need one of the two I/O modules that you offer, the base one costing $1795 and pro's costing almost twice than that?!

What does a pro sound I/O module have to offer me at almost the price of a Scarlet fixed if it already records uncompress sound as it is???

Thanks

i'm a bit confused about that too

 

[Steve Das]

... I plan on getting the fixed first. This way, I'll only need to update the brain to S35 and still keep the fixed package...

Is this possible..Can the fixed Scarlet brain be updated/changed to
other larger S35 Scarlet or Epic brains ?

 

[Rick Burnett]

Yes, the redmote, grip, battery, CF reader, LCD as I understand it work with ALL brains.