Red Rocket to save the day?!

[Frank Cueto]

Hi guys, looking for a tad of feedback, since I don't have a Red Rocket and I am building a pipeline that includes on-set work.
Just wanted to run this one by you guys, see what you thought and if its indeed feasible.

IF I get a red rocket, on a macpro, can I do the following things with it? Keep in mind this is a 2 camera show that will most likely generate about 3-4 hours of footage per day(that's counting both cameras)

1) Backup all the date to a raid-6 storage device, I would be using R3D Data Manager for this. (this has little to do with the red Rocket).

2) Do a primary grade with the DoP on set, in realtime, using RocketCine-X (Or maybe Rocket Fuel?).

3) Copy that grade across multiple clips (of course, some clips would have a different grade from other ones, I expect this wouldn't be a problem).

4) I would like to have Dailies with primary CC as soon as possible, ideally 30-60 minutes after they wrap the camera dept.

5) After I get thru the dvd's I would go ahead and transcode to prores (with the proper CC) for the editorial dept.

6) This is show is going to be dual system as far as sound goes, I hope this isn't an issue with the Red Rocket.

7) This show could very well become anamorphic, is this an issue with the Red Rocket?

8) would you trust the Red Rocket On-Set? If not, would you recommend going the way of Rocket Fuel? I am a bit concerned that the looks one can generate in rocket fuel can't be exported as RSX, and therefore, not so easy to get into redrushes for my transcode to prores.

9) Am I missing anything?

Thanks!

-Frank Cueto

 

[James Press]

Hi Frank,

Great idea to run your thoughts past here--you're sure to get some constructive input.

We shoot a live talkback-style show with 2 reds (and 2 Canon XHG1s which are locked off for extra coverage) which typically runs for about 2 hours (so we have 4 hours of red footage per show). We shoot about 3-4 shows per week, so it's a pretty close match to what you are wanting to do. We started off without RED Rocket™ and it was punishing and unsustainable. We now have rocket and it has changed our life. Awesome and mandatory IMO. We have a single early 2008 MacPro at this stage--but we intend to replace the Canons with Scarlet so will need 2 machines at that point (with RED Rocket™ in the second mac also).

In regard to you specific questions:

1) Backup all the date to a raid-6 storage device, I would be using R3D Data Manager for this. (this has little to do with the RED Rocket™™).

Yes, as you say, this has nothing to do with RED Rocket™ but very important. Depending on your longer term storage, you're going to need a pretty big raid (like>10TB). We have an LTO4 tape library...

2) Do a primary grade with the DoP on set, in realtime, using RocketCine-X (Or maybe Rocket Fuel?).

Mmmmm, yes, sort of. You can't shoot live, taking that live feed out of the camera and have it open live in RocketCine. In my experience the best way to grade is to record some footage which you then ingest into RocketCine-X, and set the look there. You can then take that look back into the camera via CF or SD card, or even make a note of what your settings are in RocketCine-X (eg color temp; tint; saturation; etc) and dial it into your cameras manually. It's all metadata anyway so it doesn't really matter whether you "set" your cameras or not. Once you've got a look you like, you save it as a preset in RocketCine and from then on to grade your footage simply requires a single click in RocketCine.

3) Copy that grade across multiple clips (of course, some clips would have a different grade from other ones, I expect this wouldn't be a problem).

Absolutely. You just load your clips up and select your preset and click "export". It's very quick, consistent and awesome. :drool:

4) I would like to have Dailies with primary CC as soon as possible, ideally 30-60 minutes after they wrap the camera dept.

Ahh Frank, wouldn't we all? RED Rocket™ is blisteringly fast by comparison to not having it, but it still takes time. Real time that is. One editing machine (basically irrelevant of how new it is, as long as it's a MacPro) with Rocket will take you about 4 hours to process 4 hours of footage. We'll be speeding up the process by getting a second machine with rocket ie it'll take 2 hours. Of all the stages and processes you go through in the workflow, BY FAR the biggest timesaver, and bang-for-your-buck, is RED Rocket™ (we considered all sorts of things like render farms; SANs etc).

One tip is, if possible, to break your live recordings into smaller files (ie button off, button on as you're shooting) rather than having one continuous 2 hour clip, if this is at all possible. It means multiple slating, and/or time syncing in post, BUT it means if you could shoot, for example a 1 hour clip, then you would only have to wait 1 hour for RED Rocket™ to transcode the footage, and you could start the edit then, 1 hour later. Meanwhile set RED Rocket™ off to transcode the second hour, whilst you're editing the first hour. It'll be finished transcoding by the time you finish the edit. We've done this a few times and it works. A negative is it can get a bit messy, having little clips all over the place...

The cost of shooting Red (currently) is the time it takes to convert the raw r3ds to a more manageable codec. If that speed is critical you should consider more conventional broadcast/ENG cameras.

5) After I get thru the dvd's I would go ahead and transcode to prores (with the proper CC) for the editorial dept.

Whoa bro. RED Rocket™ does the transcode to ProRes. That's why you use it. The recommended workflow is to set the look (ie primary grade/ one light telecine equivalent) in RED Rocket™ and then make ProRes files of the footage. You then have your footage in a format highly suitable for editing in FCP (using the multiclip editing function).

6) This is show is going to be dual system as far as sound goes, I hope this isn't an issue with the RED Rocket™™.

Dual sound is completely fine. You just have to sync it up with the footage after you have used rocket to transcode the r3ds to prores. FWIW, with 2 reds, you have 8 mic inputs--we use them all and have never had a problem and get beautiful sound with direct mics being phantom powered. We mix the audio later in post after we've done the visual edit.

7) This show could very well become anamorphic, is this an issue with the RED Rocket™™?

No, no problem.

8) would you trust the RED Rocket™™ On-Set? If not, would you recommend going the way of Rocket Fuel? I am a bit concerned that the looks one can generate in rocket fuel can't be exported as RSX, and therefore, not so easy to get into redrushes for my transcode to prores.

I'm going to have to do some homework--I don't konw what Rocket Fuel is :blush:

Just a reminder, you don't need redrushes once you've got RED Rocket™--rocket does the transcode. Similarly, you set the look (RSX) in RED Rocket™ via RocketCine-X.

9) Am I missing anything?

Thanks!

-Frank Cueto

Absorb these suggestions and see what you think. Good luck with it all!

James

 

[Frank Cueto]

James, thank you for your time. Want to bounce a couple things of you, see what you think.

It seems that due to the nature of your work, when you read show you thought in a tv show or long long takes. Thankfully that is not our case, we are working on a feature and its going to be the classic process of takes, no looong assss takes in here.

You mention that if I have 4 hours of redcode, it takes 4 hours to trans-code to dvd compatible codec. Is this because a resolution setting, or it is always 1:1 no matter the settings? We wouldn't mind a half res debayer or something similar if it means we can get faster than realtime encoding. After all these are dailies we are going to be giving to the key people on our production.

As far as the prores, yes, we plan to do the prores encoding in the red rocket as well. Sorry if it seemed we where going to use the dvd dailies for that step.

I was inclining towards Rocket Fuel (its a assimilate product, very nice and not that expensive) but the lack of support for ProRes or a way to export the look to redrushes to encode the prores over there is certainly a deal breaker for us. I am waiting for them to give me another suggestion that might work.

Yes, I am aware I wont need redrushes if i go with redrocket on the mac. Rocketcine-X takes care of all that, right?

Again, thank you for your time and knowledge

-Frank Cueto

 

[jimhare]

Hi Frank,

Another James here. :cheers2: I have a RED Rocket™ as well and it is truly wonderful.

It is resolution dependant, so SD for DVD will go MUCH faster than 720 or 1080.

I have a very slow system, and I can still do real time for SD. 720 is about double and 1080 is closer to four times.

Something you need to keep in mind for DVD dailies is that the software doesn't convert to MPEG2 directly, so you need to factor this in as well.

Hope this helps,

Jim

 

[Frank Cueto]

OH, now THAT (not converting to MPEG-2) is a nasty lil one...

What would you recommend? Is there any codec that is supported by RedRocket that transcodes fairly quickt to MPEG-2? Also, will red rocket add 3:2 pulldown to my 23.976FPS footage?

At some point dailies might have to be on a data-dvd (is there a list of available codecs on the rocket?) if i can't figure out a decent way to go to mpeg-2.

-Frank Cueto

 

[James Press]

Hi Frank,

Delighted to share.

You mention that if I have 4 hours of redcode, it takes 4 hours to trans-code to dvd compatible codec. Is this because a resolution setting, or it is always 1:1 no matter the settings? We wouldn't mind a half res debayer or something similar if it means we can get faster than realtime encoding. After all these are dailies we are going to be giving to the key people on our production.

As Jim points out, it doesn't take 4 hours to transcode to dvd compatible codec--it takes 4 hours to transcode to ProRes. You would then additionally have to transcode the ProRes to mpeg2 (using Compressor or similar), so factor in another couple of hours there. Debayer settings in RedRocket does not significantly affect transcoding times, so you might as well do full debayer. Again, as Jim points out, if the ProRes is for the DVDs then a standard def output form Red Rocket is all you need. Still takes about real time.

As far as the prores, yes, we plan to do the prores encoding in the RED Rocket™ as well. Sorry if it seemed we where going to use the dvd dailies for that step.

I was inclining towards Rocket Fuel (its a assimilate product, very nice and not that expensive) but the lack of support for ProRes or a way to export the look to redrushes to encode the prores over there is certainly a deal breaker for us. I am waiting for them to give me another suggestion that might work.

Yes, I am aware I wont need redrushes if i go with redrocket on the mac. Rocketcine-X takes care of all that, right?

Again, thank you for your time and knowledge

-Frank Cueto

I'd be inclined to stay inside mac/FCP world if you and your editors are set up that way, meaning don't go with Rocket Fuel. RocketCine-X is Redrushes on steroids. You'll love itarty:

 

[James Press]

OH, now THAT (not converting to MPEG-2) is a nasty lil one...

What would you recommend? Is there any codec that is supported by RedRocket that transcodes fairly quickt to MPEG-2? Also, will RED Rocket™™ add 3:2 pulldown to my 23.976FPS footage?

At some point dailies might have to be on a data-dvd (is there a list of available codecs on the rocket?) if i can't figure out a decent way to go to mpeg-2.

-Frank Cueto

Data DVD would be fastest route FOR SURE. Just make ProRes (Proxy) or even H264 transcode. I'm away from our rocket at the moment so can't provide thorough list of available codecs, but from memory h264 is an option--so you'd get a fair bit of footage on a DVD as data.

Also, if you can have a DIT on set with a workstation and RED Rocket™ then he can be continually ingesting footage throughout the day and transcoding as he goes, so you could, VERY REALISTICALLY, have the footage out to data dvd 60 mins after wrap.

 

[Frank Cueto]

Maybe I can spend the day transcoding to prores the r3d's as they are handing them to me. That way at the end of the day I already have most of the transcodes done, hmmm....

Now, what about the pulldown for my 23.976 footy? or compressor takes care of making my 23.976 footage playback correctly on dvd? Sorry if its a NOOB question, but my post background is mostly Linux/windows stations.

-Frank Cueto

 

[jimhare]

Hey Frank, one option could be to play your dailies out from the Rocket, down converting the HD-SDI or DVI and going to a DVD Recorder. You can then do a second pass over night for all of your edit files.

I don't know if there are plans for realtime T/C overlay, though I'm sure it will be an option in transcoded files.

As far as I know, there is no direct-to-MPEG2 option using the Rocket so you will probably need to find another way to approach realtime dailies.

Hey James :cheers2:, yes, the H264 out of Rocket works well. I'm using it for Pawel's 15 hours of seal footage! :thumbsup:

All the best.

Jim

 

[James Press]

Frank yes I definitely agree that transcoding through the day as you go is the way to go --you want to be backing up your footage ASAP anyway (listen to the wonderfully informative interview of Brook Willard on redcentre # 44 podcast: http://www.fxguide.com/redcentre); so transcoding then will MASSIVELY speed up your workflow. Because RED Rocket™ takes almost all of the load of transcoding your r3ds, you can run Compressor simultaneously, so you can transcode the 23.976 ProRes files to NTSC then, if need be, BUT if you make DATA DVDs then no further processing of the ProRes files would be necessary, no? If your workflow requires DVDs (not sure why it would--surely the crew/team will be watching on laptops/desktops??) then yes use Compressor. Like anything new, you absolutely want to run a few tests before you start shooting to ensure it all works--time is going to be critical for you it seems.

Finally, no apologies for questions here--we are all learning!

Best,

James

 

[M Most]

Maybe I can spend the day transcoding to prores the r3d's as they are handing them to me. That way at the end of the day I already have most of the transcodes done, hmmm....

Now, what about the pulldown for my 23.976 footy? or compressor takes care of making my 23.976 footage playback correctly on dvd?

Transcoding with the Red Rocket is going to take the same amount of time (i.e., approx. real time) regardless of whether you're making HD or SD because the Rocket always performs a full 4K debayer, followed by scaling. Your larger problem, if I'm reading your posts correctly, is that you're recording double system. This means that you have to post sync all of your dailies, which in turn means a trip through an editing program for someone who's going to do that synching. Assuming you use common time code and are careful about doing that, synching should not be time consuming. But making your viewing DVDs is likely going to have to wait until the picture has sound married to it. So I would suggest making your ProRes files, immediately taking them into Final Cut on the same system, synching sound, making a timeline of all the synched shots, and playing it out to a DVD recorder (real time) using either a Kona or Blackmagic or similar card. The only way to accomplish any of this in your time frame is to "break film" in, say, no more than 30 minute chunks. Less if you can do it without being intrusive. And to have a full time data wranger/editor/playout person doing this work.

 

[Frank Cueto]

If the cameras are recording the audio fed from the sound dept. why would I need to sync it for dailies/editorial? Last show we did we made dailies and prores files from the R3D files and all was fine and dandy. Then at the end (for the sound)we conformed from the hi-quality audio the sound dept. recorded on set.

What is very important for me, is that both cameras record with the same timecode, which is fed from the sound dept. same goes for the E-Slate.

As far as NTSC DVD Dailies, for some reason they feel its a lot eaasier to drop in a dvd and just hit play, than to browse thru a ton of qt's files on a disc.

Mike, could be I am referring to double system wrong and thats confusing everything. We plan to have audio fed to the cameras on set, premixed from the sound dept.
I do agree a 100% with you about the workflow if the cameras where recording MOS.

Again, thanks to everyone for the input!

 

[Michael Totten]

Transcoding with the RED Rocket™ is going to take the same amount of time (i.e., approx. real time) regardless of whether you're making HD or SD because the Rocket always performs a full 4K debayer, followed by scaling. Your larger problem, if I'm reading your posts correctly, is that you're recording double system. This means that you have to post sync all of your dailies, which in turn means a trip through an editing program for someone who's going to do that synching. Assuming you use common time code and are careful about doing that, synching should not be time consuming. But making your viewing DVDs is likely going to have to wait until the picture has sound married to it. So I would suggest making your ProRes files, immediately taking them into Final Cut on the same system, synching sound, making a timeline of all the synched shots, and playing it out to a DVD recorder (real time) using either a Kona or Blackmagic or similar card. The only way to accomplish any of this in your time frame is to "break film" in, say, no more than 30 minute chunks. Less if you can do it without being intrusive. And to have a full time data wranger/editor/playout person doing this work.

Hey Mike I'm curious about part of your post. I didn't realize there were "DVD recorders" that you could hook up to a Kona or BlackMagic (I'm assuming HD-SDI) ? Does this mean that the DVD recorder does any encode on the fly? I'm confused here. How does this work?
I always thought if you were going to dvd you would have to encode to mpeg in compressor or some other program and then burn a dvd.

thanks,
Michael

 

[James Press]

If the cameras are recording the audio fed from the sound dept. why would I need to sync it for dailies/editorial? Last show we did we made dailies and prores files from the R3D files and all was fine and dandy. Then at the end (for the sound)we conformed from the hi-quality audio the sound dept. recorded on set.

What is very important for me, is that both cameras record with the same timecode, which is fed from the sound dept. same goes for the E-Slate.

As far as NTSC DVD Dailies, for some reason they feel its a lot eaasier to drop in a dvd and just hit play, than to browse thru a ton of qt's files on a disc.

Mike, could be I am referring to double system wrong and thats confusing everything. We plan to have audio fed to the cameras on set, premixed from the sound dept.
I do agree a 100% with you about the workflow if the cameras where recording MOS.

Again, thanks to everyone for the input!

Your system for sound will work fine. At worst, after the edit is done, someone might have to sync sound. But it sounds like you've got this covered.

You can jam sync your 2 reds together to get matching timecode, no problem.

 

[Frank Cueto]

Yes Michael, there are some dvd recorders that record/encode on the fly. Mostly for home use. Its very hard to find one with component in or even better SDI (Pioneer used to make one, the Pioneer LVX if i remember correctly. And it was wonderful . You would need a SDI or DVI decoder to composite if you wanted to use the consumer kind.

 

[M Most]

Mike, could be I am referring to double system wrong and thats confusing everything. We plan to have audio fed to the cameras on set, premixed from the sound dept.

Yes, it was confusing. When someone says double system, I assume that means no feed to the camera, which is the way it's usually done in high end production (which is admittedly what I'm used to).

In your case, Jim's suggestion of doing the real time playout through a downconverter to get the DVD's done first is probably a good one. You can then play it by ear as to whether there's time before the next film break to run the second pass for the editorial files.

 

[Michael Totten]

Yes Michael, there are some dvd recorders that record/encode on the fly. Mostly for home use. Its very hard to find one with component in or even better SDI (Pioneer used to make one, the Pioneer LVX if i remember correctly. And it was wonderful . You would need a SDI or DVI decoder to composite if you wanted to use the consumer kind.

The Pioneer sounds like a good thing to have. I'm curious what kind of quality you could expect? Is it as good (or close) to compressing and burning?
thanks,
michael
ps. sorry, I'm not trying to hi-jack the thread here.. just thought I could get in a couple quick questions.

 

[Frank Cueto]

It produced GREAT dvd's/ Plus you didn't have to fiddle with field interpolation or framerate stuff.
I don't have it at my facility, but one of our competitors does, and he cranks great dvds real fast, while we have to go to encore or something similar to match his quality.

 

[jimhare]

I have everything from a $100k Sonic Solutions Hardware MPEG2 encoder to a $300 consumer DVD Recorder.

All DVD recorders should be considered reference or consumer use, you wouldn't use one to record anything serious (though I have seen a few shocking examples when they have!)

For dailies, or a corporate video they would be great. You will get a clear picture and no fuss. But it isn't a substitute for a professional set up.

My experience does not match that of MMOST about SD and HD taking the same time to transcode.

While it is definitely true that the Rocket performs a realtime 4K debayer, you are still relying on the computer to generate the transcoded file, and it will have to work harder (4 times) to make a 1080 file than it would SD.

This is true whether you use the Rocket or not.

My experience has been SD takes a third or a quarter of the time to create than HD on the Rocket.