Red Rocket 2?

[Craig Parkes]

Robert - you are 'wishing' for Red to make something that doesn't make sense because you don't really understand the principles of the technology RED uses.

You CAN'T upscale RAW sensor data and have it retain it's true nature...

Theoretically there might be a way to upscale RAW sensor data, and THEN debayer to RGB to generate a picture that is usable, but I doubt it because unless it's an exact doubling of the frame size, you are almost undoubtedly going to break the bayer pattern that is inherently necessary for the recorded image to be debayered to RGB.

RED are doing amazing things for the indie film maker - I know because I am an indie film maker. But what you are asking for doesn't make sense from a technical point of view for RED to be able to deliver, and really isn't NEEDED from the point of view of those actually making films. It's a whim - seemingly your whim, without very strong reasoning behind it.

I don't begrudge you your whim - but if you are going to make others believe that it's valid you've gotta come up with a stronger explanation than 'Red can do it, I just know they can!'.

 

[Robert McGee]

There is no way that this product would use the same imaging sensor that is used in the Redone, it would use a series of processors similar to what AJA has. Have you ever thought of that, and I know there smarter to know that. Capture cards don't use the same RGB sensors that are seen in a camcorder, whether it's analog or digital. It would use a completely different RGB sensor, made specially for the RED Rocket™ 2

If made by RED then naturally they would use the REDCODE format for all 2K and 4K upscaling to avoid paying royalty fees to everyone and their mamas, second party would be required to use an alternate video format. The reason I'm proposing this is because I'm currenlty developing a CGI animated movie that some of the people involved want to see it on the big screen, I figured that if RED where to start the planning stage as soon as I'm finished with the script, then it should be on the market in time, because it's gonna be rendered at HD 1080 resolution.

I don't see AJA coming out with a 4K upscaling card at the same time, do you? I do understand the principles of almost every single video codec out there, including the new mvc coded which is the standard for 3D Blu-Ray, it's suppose to be 2 avc encoded videos overlayed ontop of eachother, one for the left eye and a second for the right eye, and on a standard Blu-Ray player, it plays back in 2D and is recognized as avc.

Now I do understand that upscaling HD 1080 to 2K is simple because it only doubles the number of vertical and horizontal lines requiring only one step in the hardware, but for 4K a second step is required. Once it is now 2K it goes throw a second step to become 4K, then the hardware would record it as a video file in REDCODE format.

This thing would not operate like a Redone when recording 2K or 4K content meaning it would not use a Redone's RGB sensor; it would act just like any other upscaling box, if it can't be done then it won't make it to the market place.

Where is what we know about the Redcode format: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REDCODE

 

[Craig Parkes]

Robert - pretty much everything you said above about what you 'understand' you clearly don't, because your descriptions of all of it are very very wrong.

2k is nowhere near double the resolution of 1920 x 1080 HD. In fact, HD at 16:9 is about 88% the resolution of 2K 16:9 and a 2K projection at 2.35:1 aspect ratio projection actually has LESS resolution than a 16:9 1920 x 1080 projection, due to the lower number of vertical pixels - and you see 2.35:1 2K projection on a regular basis in theaters.

REDCODE doesn't currently exist in an RGB form, so the use of REDCODE is a misnomer. If REDCODE (as it stands now) was RGB, it would by necessity be three times larger, because it would have to have three times the data set.

Why you would want that, codec, one you can't edit with, for your film I have no idea...

My suggestion, instead of using terminology that you don't really understand the principles behind, you state in simpler terms exactly what you want...

e.g. To me it sounds like you want to finish your project in 1920 x 1080 and be able to upscale later on to 4K when that becomes a distribution requirement... And you want to do that cheaply.

Guess what - for your animated film, you could do that exceedingly cheaply on almost any computer setup you name, using open source software both for the rescaling and finishing the film to a DCI package (would take some knowhow, but is totally doable). It won't be realtime, but who needs realtime when it comes to processing out a final deliverable.

It also will be a waste of resource if it's any time in the near future, because upscaling to 4K from HD isn't a huge requirement when the vast majority of cinema is projected off 2K projectors or 2K scanned and printed film.

Maybe you mean you want to encode to Red's announced distribution format - a 15 megabit per second 4K signal. If THAT's what you want, then I imagine you'll have no trouble as soon as it hits the market

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

Robert - pretty much everything you said above about what you 'understand' you clearly don't, because your descriptions of all of it are very very wrong.

2k is nowhere near double the resolution of 1920 x 1080 HD. In fact, HD at 16:9 is about 88% the resolution of 2K 16:9 and a 2K projection at 2.35:1 aspect ratio projection actually has LESS resolution than a 16:9 1920 x 1080 projection, due to the lower number of vertical pixels - and you see 2.35:1 2K projection on a regular basis in theaters.

REDCODE doesn't currently exist in an RGB form, so the use of REDCODE is a misnomer. If REDCODE (as it stands now) was RGB, it would by necessity be three times larger, because it would have to have three times the data set.

Why you would want that, codec, one you can't edit with, for your film I have no idea...

My suggestion, instead of using terminology that you don't really understand the principles behind, you state in simpler terms exactly what you want...

e.g. To me it sounds like you want to finish your project in 1920 x 1080 and be able to upscale later on to 4K when that becomes a distribution requirement... And you want to do that cheaply.

Guess what - for your animated film, you could do that exceedingly cheaply on almost any computer setup you name, using open source software both for the rescaling and finishing the film to a DCI package (would take some knowhow, but is totally doable). It won't be realtime, but who needs realtime when it comes to processing out a final deliverable.

It also will be a waste of resource if it's any time in the near future, because upscaling to 4K from HD isn't a huge requirement when the vast majority of cinema is projected off 2K projectors or 2K scanned and printed film.

Maybe you mean you want to encode to Red's announced distribution format - a 15 megabit per second 4K signal. If THAT's what you want, then I imagine you'll have no trouble as soon as it hits the market

:attention9ha:

This workflow already exists with RAW. You can finish to HD or 4K from the original r3d. All very affordably if you have the time.

Upscaling HD footy to 4K is akin to blowing 16mm(or Super 8mm) to 35mm ... it can be done, but looks like crap usually. Unless you have theatrical distribution, which 99.9% of indie movies DONT get... there is often no reason to "upres to 2K" much less 4K.

Red Rocket 2 should simply crunch 9K and 28K at the same speeds it crunches 4K now... and hopefully, will come down in price so more people use it.

But have to agree with Chris, your posts are kind of non-sensical.

 

[Robert McGee]

So your saying that with all the stuff that I'm suggesting, it also needs to accommodate the newer RED cameras that will be coming out such as Epic and Scarlett. That's good thinking.

The reason why 2.35:1 at 2K or 4K has a lower level of vertical pixels is because whoever came up with the 2K and 4K standards must not have had been up all night before he finally wrote something down and went to bed, or he was just too dump to know the true nature of 35mm film. When I sent in the DVD copy of my 3rd movie to the copyright office to apply for a copyright, I also sent in a document detailing a new digital film standard that would make the current 2K and 4K standards obsolete.

 

[Craig Parkes]

No Robert, the reason it has less vertical pixels is mathematics.

I'm done.

 

[Robert McGee]

Then we need to bring the subject back to the Red Rocket 2, would it be required to for the Red Epic and Scarlet cameras?

 

[Robert McGee]

No Robert, the reason it has less vertical pixels is mathematics.

I'm done.

Well I get that part but I'm looking at a completely different math, the math used to set the standards for 2K and 4K where based on the aspects of 35mm film, while my system is based on the aspects of 70mm film. It was also intended for IMAX as resolution levels got higher and higher on my system, plus with the how popular digital 3D has become, I'll also need to submit another document to them when I send in my next completed project to tell them how the same system can be used to shot in 3D with just one camera and one lens. I know Clash of the Titans was shot in 2D and then converted to 3D in post, this wouldn't happen with my new system but I would need to submit the details to them before I make them public.

If RED wants to try this out in one of their cameras, they would have to pay me royalties, even if they use their own .r3d video format.

Plus, shouldn't the Redone allow the user to shoot 4K 1.33:1 @ 4096x3080 with the option of an anamorphic lens? That's a higher resolution then 4096x2048 because if you want to make 35mm film prints or do the IMAX DMR, those guys will have a higher resolution image to work with.

I just want to keep the subject on the RED Rocket 2, aside from being able to upscale SD to HD and upscale HD to 2K/4K, it would also be useful with the Red Epic and Scarlet camera lines but with Epic and Scarlet you would have to deal with 8K and even 9K workflow direct from those cameras in .r3d format. Also, are they going to discontinue the RedOne? I think it should stay as a cheap alternative choice to Epic and Scarlet.

 

[Robert McGee]

But the part about it upscaling 1080 video to 2K and 4K. If your not going to be able to use .r3d for that, then what lossy video codec would you want to use instead? Could it use a new video codec that is an extension of .r3d?