RED RAY PRO PLAYER - 4K server - ALIVE!!

[M Most]

Mike, please think about it from the EXHIBITORS mindset for one second.

The experience is all about the sizzle brother. Especially if it brings more peeps and lets me sell more $5 cokes and $5 popcorns...know what Im saying?

right now its 3D,

But next is 4K is where my $ is riding and the shit (even Arri) is getting cheaper

Well, if I look at it from the exhibitor's point of view, I'm looking for what puts more people in the seats. In every study that I've seen - and I've looked at a lot of them - I don't recall seeing any evidence at all that 4K projection attracts more viewers than 2K projection. In fact, most of the studies have shown that digital projection in general doesn't really put more people in the seats (vs. film projection). Most viewers seem to like it, but in the end, they seem to go to whatever theater is the most convenient for them to see the movie they want to see, regardless of the projection method used. Besides, the real reason for the push to digital projection is to eliminate physical film manufacture and distribution. Giving the viewing public a better experience is not the primary motivating factor. Saving distribution costs is.

So I guess what I'm saying is that I've yet to see any real evidence that 4K is in itself any kind of driver for theater goers. However, there is a hell of a lot of evidence that 3D is. And I would remind you that to this point in time, there is no 4K 3D. But as always, everyone is certainly free to believe whatever they want to believe and draw their own conclusions. Including you and me.

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

Well, if I look at it from the exhibitor's point of view, I'm looking for what puts more people in the seats. In every study that I've seen - and I've looked at a lot of them - I don't recall seeing any evidence at all that 4K projection attracts more viewers than 2K projection. In fact, most of the studies have shown that digital projection in general doesn't really put more people in the seats (vs. film projection). Most viewers seem to like it, but in the end, they seem to go to whatever theater is the most convenient for them to see the movie they want to see, regardless of the projection method used. Besides, the real reason for the push to digital projection is to eliminate physical film manufacture and distribution. Giving the viewing public a better experience is not the primary motivating factor. Saving distribution costs is.

So I guess what I'm saying is that I've yet to see any real evidence that 4K is in itself any kind of driver for theater goers. However, there is a hell of a lot of evidence that 3D is. And I would remind you that to this point in time, there is no 4K 3D. But as always, everyone is certainly free to believe whatever they want to believe and draw their own conclusions. Including you and me.

You keep talking about today, but everyone else on this thread is talking about tomorrow.

 

[M Most]

You keep talking about today, but everyone else on this thread is talking about tomorrow.

I don't see how that changes what I just said in the least. And I really don't see why theatergoers' opinions would change simply because of what year it is. But, as I said, everyone is free to have their own opinion.

 

[Steven Caesare]

Well, if I look at it from the exhibitor's point of view, I'm looking for what puts more people in the seats. In every study that I've seen - and I've looked at a lot of them - I don't recall seeing any evidence at all that 4K projection attracts more viewers than 2K projection. In fact, most of the studies have shown that digital projection in general doesn't really put more people in the seats (vs. film projection). Most viewers seem to like it, but in the end, they seem to go to whatever theater is the most convenient for them to see the movie they want to see, regardless of the projection method used. Besides, the real reason for the push to digital projection is to eliminate physical film manufacture and distribution. Giving the viewing public a better experience is not the primary motivating factor. Saving distribution costs is.

So I guess what I'm saying is that I've yet to see any real evidence that 4K is in itself any kind of driver for theater goers. However, there is a hell of a lot of evidence that 3D is. And I would remind you that to this point in time, there is no 4K 3D. But as always, everyone is certainly free to believe whatever they want to believe and draw their own conclusions. Including you and me.

Oooh, I dunno about that.

What 4K major exhibitions have been distributed to cinemas with 4K projection equipment to really even gauge that? Zero, I think.

But I will tell you this, for The Dark Knight, there was a definite interest amongst peole I know to see it in IMax, and they knew that only a subset of the movie was truly Imax format... but it represented a premium experience.

People in my area seek theaters with digital projection, and will buy tickets based on getting in to an auditorium equipped as such.

Online ticket service advertise the show times that are in digital.

For Avatar, people I know saught specific theaters based on the type of 3D systems they had installed (RealD, etc...).

I suspect that a theater that advertises "This showtime presented in 4K Digital High Definition!" for the shows in their new Sony SXRD 220 equipped auditorium is going to be able to draw people based on that alone, and perhaps even command a premium to do so.

-sc

PS- Any luck with a pointer for that DCP server you mentioned? Thanks.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

However, there is a hell of a lot of evidence that 3D is.

And how many generations passed before we could make that statement and mean it? No watched "Ghosts of the Abyss" and yet everyone and their brother has been to "Avatar" -- many repeatedly, and the 3D example is exactly proof that things do change with the right convergence of better technology, a substantial amount of money persuasively thrown behind producing and selling it, and the ineffable zeitgeist.

There is big money behind 3D (now there is, but certainly this is a recent phenomenon), and I would say that 4K also requires some big backing from a champion who believes in the technology, who believes that relatively inexpensive, high quality projection actually will put butts in seats, who stands to gain financially by persuasively making this argument.

No one said it was going to be easy or immediate - but certainly the idea of RED RAY and its ability to make a single master and transcode and deliver in real time to any format, using the same machine (RED RAY PRO or RED RAY for the consumer) whether at home or in a theater, could represent a substantial savings worthy of a look. Simplicity and efficiency and a streamlined delivery process seem like the attraction of RED RAY - not just 4K itself. RED RAY applications are not limited to theatrical - that's the beauty of the system, as I understand it. I'm sure it has evolved a great deal and look forward to hearing more from RED. They are suspiciously mum about it, and yet they had that great-looking RED RAY box on display but not a word about it - something's up!

 

[Deanan]

I understand, and I applaud the effort. However, allow me to ask the question(s): Is Red prepared to open source their codec? Does the system handle any current or future color space? Is the security model based on open, documented standards? Because quite frankly, I just don't see the DCI consortium members going for anything controlled by only one company, or anything that isn't completely documented in freely available documentation.

I have no problem with pushing things forward. But quite frankly, the current format already supports what you seem to pushing for, and it fulfills all of the criteria I just mentioned. If I'm wrong, I'd really like to know where.

The DCI market is a smaller subset of what we're targeting. While DCI is great for many many reasons, there are disadvantages that we believe are worth addressing differently and that's the intention of REDray.

I can't go into specific answers regarding your questions but it would be good to discuss them when we are able to in public.

 

[David Limpus]

So closed captions is possible from REDray and frame accurate automation control?

 

[M Most]

The DCI market is a smaller subset of what we're targeting. While DCI is great for many many reasons, there are disadvantages that we believe are worth addressing differently and that's the intention of REDray.

That sounds sensible.

I can't go into specific answers regarding your questions but it would be good to discuss them when we are able to in public.

I look forward to the discussion. Maybe over lunch sometime soon.

 

[Deanan]

That sounds sensible.
I look forward to the discussion. Maybe over lunch sometime soon.

Definitely lunch

 

[Shane Betts]

See signature...

 

[Vincent Rice]

Great discussion guys. I can see both sides of this having been (peripherally) involved in the exhibition side in Europe for twenty years. It's correct that the DCI consortium and SMPTE will simply not change ships at this point in time. It took long enough to agree in the first place! That is not how disruptive change occurs however. I can see RR being installed in a much larger range of venues and situations (my own interest is DS/DOOH) where security is less of an issue and the possibility of squirting 4K programme via broadband is a win. There is then a real possibility of RR becoming a de facto standard for advertising, indie festivals, independent exhibitor chains, business presentations etc., and the DCIC having to come to terms with it at some point in the future.

I am very pleased to hear of the progress on the RedRay players. Hopefully at some point we could have a public meeting(s) to really discuss the ramifications, away from the camera related stuff.

 

[Elsie N]

We have become such a niche society in regard to TV/cable/satellite programming, where everyone gets their entertainment their way. It seems up 'til now that mainstream movies have been bound to brick and mortar theaters.

I can see Red 4k making it possible to create the theater experience anywhere it has a market, and thus connecting the niche movie-maker with his or her audience. And just like there's room for a brick and mortar Starbucks, there is also a place for the coffee wagon that sells to a different customer. Still, Starbucks IS losing business in this cost-conscious new normal to other coffee providers... and that has caused Starbucks to change its own business model.

 

[Shawn Nelson]

ah man, that's what you guys were doing in there! Andrew (#127) and I were still at the party wondering what was going on in the screening room. I'd have loved to have seen that, maybe next year it'll be shipping?

 

[Jonas Rejman]

It may be, that RED is ultimately going to become a media creation, media tools and also media delivering company.

It seems that they will shoot movies in their own studios, on their own cameras and will deliver them in their own format on their own servers, projected eventually on their own projectors.

Because they will not distinguish between "pro" and "consumer" per say, there will be a huge volume to sell any of those products, because the mass-production and the integrity of the system will make unbeatable pricing.

The way how you can configure everything however you want makes you trust the company, and you spend happy more money. Not lastly, because there is a record of features in future for free, and most important of all, those guys USE their stuff, and LISTEN to what the customers long for.

With RED, you will now, that the stuff will work. RED is a guarantee for excellent quality for incredible pricing. Sure, there will always be some snorting, as what is "that cheap" cannot be "that good", but this will not interest anyone who is in for scarlets.

RED is the independence of high end, so to speak, allowing tools to be available to the masses. I think it is about the perfect balance of high-end quality and masses. And the masses are where the money lies.


Jim so knows what he is doing.

 

[Christian Berg]

I work for a cinema company that is going digital in the near future. We already run the advertisement digitally in full HD and have tried for the last 3 years to get distributors to show trailers in our system. Since it´s not DCI compliant they refuse to run the trailers. The smaller, local companies (independent) run their trailers, but not the big ones. Hollywood is holding them back on this. Everything would be easier, cheaper, more secure and just run better. Making them change is not an easy task. I think that if Red Ray would have DCI support it would be a no brainer for theaters to install them. Be able to run normal DCP features along with trailers and advertisement in Reds distribution format would be awesome. I could easily get our company to by a couple of hundred. But not being able to run DCPs makes it a lot harder since we would still need two systems. Sorry to say, DCPs are here to stay for a while. But if RED can get the big studios to use their distribution format it would be great. On the other hand it seems to be a great player.

 

[M Most]

I think that if Red Ray would have DCI support it would be a no brainer for theaters to install them.

Based on Deanan's comment, that might be the case. I'm not saying that it is, but it is possible, and to my mind, a good idea. Which is one reason why I'm looking forward to the promised lunch conversation....

 

[Mohammed El Sharqawy]

What about the RED DISTRIBUTION FORMAT??? and (non-PRO) RED RAY??
Will we be able to put 4K on DVD media? or will there be a standard RED 4K DVD format?

 

[Stephen Gentle]

I was saying to Joseph that RED should team up with Apple to get their chip in the Apple TV. Apple has deals with a lot of studios and a distribution network already in place. And having RED 4K movies on the iTunes store would be great for them - imagine being able to give your customers image quality that's better than Blu-Ray on 1080p now, and 4K in the future without having to pay more or download a bigger version!

Or perhaps RED could just do it themselves. But a consumer version of RED RAY could really blow Blu-Ray out of the water.

 

[Steven Caesare]

Or perhaps RED could just do it themselves. But a consumer version of RED RAY could really blow Blu-Ray out of the water.

A consumer version of Red4K (aka RedRay)has been not only announced, but is what was talked about first, before the Pro version came along:

Here's what Jarred had to say about in back on the 11/30 update announcement thread:

We haven't said much about RED RAY in the last couple months, but there definitely has been alot of development happening. With feedback from our partners and many of you, we have moved the RED RAY PRO ahead of RED RAY Consumer....

We haven't heard anything to indicate it's not still in the works...

-sc

 

[Stephen Gentle]

A consumer version of Red4K (aka RedRay)has been not only announced, but is what was talked about first, before the Pro version came along

It was more about a distribution network I was talking about RED rolling out - I certainly remember that model.

It would be cool to have an online store that you could access on the device and download movies onto an inbuilt drive, and I think RED could save a lot of trouble by teaming up with an already established player to licence their decoding/scaling chips and codec.