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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Red Raid availability

Jarred Land said:
Hey Laguun.. opening up to standard sata posses alot of liability to us and the customers, as we have learned that hard way from people already opening up our existing drives and trying to use off-the-shelf drives from. When a customer modified drive fails.. people automatically point the finger to RED.
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Hi Jarred,

thats crystalclear - and pretty much the same situation as when avid sold avid drives instead of regular drives.

The main decision is to trust the customers - basically the same model as with lenses and/or mounts. The IMS Mount, as example, allows lots of errors made (focal lenght/backfocus, non 35 coverage etc) and i consider it a great addition to the the red one however. One can mount fine Panavision glass on it,, or one can spoil the excellent red image by using crappy lenses.

The main problem is that RED doesnt sell drives, or, more precisely, cant deliver enough drives and customers are in need right now.

Furthermore, remote drives (via xsata), secure drives (via raid 5), simultan offload & record, higher storgae capacity and yes, also better prices, are all options which would benefit to the red one and its owners & users.

I also have to admit that i feel unsecure with an non-buffered raid0 on my or an customers shoulder.

I really would appreciate if red would offer a standard sata interface as option for the cf-sata adapter. Even if red HQ would allow this only by single-case application and introduce a huge warning into the EVF & LCD which reads:
"WARNING! Your rental house which you´ve got your camera from went totally nuts and insisted on using the non-approved rocket-science SATA experimental adapter which isnt approved for any kind of professional production!
RED DCC doesnt take any responsability for consequences your production might encounter due to this untolerable risky decision of yours!"
... as long i could shoot to an raid 5 then :)


Jarred Land said:
Our Camera doesn't send data exactly like a computer does, so both pieces need to be tuned for proper communication which is why our drives and cards have custom firmware.
Using standard sata raids that were meant for rather standard communication, special in the higher bitrate camera modes, pose a very dangerous issue.. the kind that may not be immediately visible.
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Now i am surprised - i thought the communication is completly standard SATA protocol to FAT32, as with the lexar CF?
 
Jarred Land said:
Our Camera doesn't send data exactly like a computer does, so both pieces need to be tuned for proper communication which is why our drives and cards have custom firmware. Using standard sata raids that were meant for rather standard communication, special in the higher bitrate camera modes, pose a very dangerous issue.. the kind that may not be immediately visible.
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It was a serious failure on RED's part to leave customers hanging for several months without drives. Most, if not all customers ordered these drives long before their cameras were due to ship, leaving RED plenty of time to foresee demand.

When you create a proprietary path, it is incumbent upon you to stay up to speed on the limited options you do present us with. Compact flash is not a viable option for all work flows.

To be fair, I love the camera and what you guys have done so far but this aspect has been a let down.
 
Option to use standard SATA-drives (witn big warning in display) I think is a good idea.

Cheers
 
Greg Smith said:
It was a serious failure on RED's part to leave customers hanging for several months without drives. Most, if not all customers ordered these drives long before their cameras were due to ship, leaving RED plenty of time to foresee demand.

When you create a proprietary path, it is incumbent upon you to stay up to speed on the limited options you do present us with. Compact flash is not a viable option for all work flows.

To be fair, I love the camera and what you guys have done so far but this aspect has been a let down.
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you make it sound sooooooo easy :)

sorry we let you down man.. obviously it wasn't our intention.
 
We understand what you guys are saying and I would normally agree but my experience testing and qualifying drive on the camera has shown that this is extremely non trivial and dangerous. It takes months of testing and revising firmware on both side to get reliable recording on both sides. There are way more ways to cause problems than simply not fast enough. Every type of media has a special mode inside the camera for these reasons.

B17 has a new mode for unverified cards for slower datarates that are less timing critical. Even that mode is risky with some of the cards Ive tested.
 
Build 17

Build 17

B17 has a new mode for unverified cards for slower datarates that are less timing critical. Even that mode is risky with some of the cards Ive tested.
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And the camera will warn you of that risk at the point in time you mount any non-speed verified CF card.

We obviously aim to catch up on RED-DRIVES soon.
 
I think the problem is that we don't know what soon means, it's one of those round-about words.

Or an explanation of the problem, there must be a problem for this to happen?

Having a RED sat doing nothing waiting for drives to arrive, well it's like having a Ferrari on the drive, the keys in your pocket and no gas in the tank because the gas station says the tanker is coming soon....but it doesn't come!!

Luckily i got a good stash of CF cards other wise i would have been stuffed, and the jobs i have done so far... well it just wouldn't have been possible.

But for those people sat waiting for drives, with the RED on the table, waiting...waiting...that must be frustrating, turning the jobs down, or hiring other kit in when you have your own to use. You have to admit, 3 months down the line with a camera and no drives...what would your response be guys??

RED is an awesome company, the RED ONE is pure genius, and we all love Jim...but this RED drive scenario, well it just doesn't seem to fit the picture, it seems so un-REDish.

So come on RED...why the delays?..you have been straight with us so far. Why are 100's of us sat without? XXX this message is sent with big love.
 
Bob... its all manufacturing. I know its hard to understand, but its just the way it works. Its why people are waiting for camera bodies still... there is only so fast you can make things. If one component in the chain for a product changes, goes out of production, etc.. then it stops the whole line.

If we told you an exact date we would be lying to you. If you are ok with that, then I will tell you right now. You should have your drive next week.
 
Thanks Jarred,

As i said we love you guys, part of the problem is we love the whole thing, this whole revolution. RED has fired people up, given them a creative outlet that was otherwise impossible only a year ago.

It's the new toy syndrome, kids in the candy shop..please forgive us we don't mean to spit our dummies out, but we just passed go and got out of jail free..lol
 
Jarred Land said:
you make it sound sooooooo easy :)
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Sorry if it sounded like I was making light of your achievements, I have much respect for what RED has done. That is part of the problem for RED, you set the bar high. Whenever you don't produce to expectations you should know your gonna get hammered.

Bob.H, I like your analogy...
Ferrari on the drive, the keys in my pocket and no gas in the tank
 
I'm just a camera-guy, but why is it som hard to save the 36MB/s data stream from the camera when I can buy a SATA DVD-ROM for $30 (LG with the RENESAS R8J32030HFPV sata controller chip) that pump out 50MB/s? (not Mbit) If I go and get a external 1TB raid-0 drive WD StudioEdition II for $200, that one write more than 80MB/s and reads even faster.

Cheers :)
 
I just don't get this either. I'm guessing (!) there's more to it than "just" manufacturing. You can get a Chinese company to pump out thousands of these controller boards a day. Housing shouldn't be a problem either - just send 5 different companies the drawings and they can spray-cast the parts in no-time. I'm guessing the problem lies in getting the drives at the right price. The ones that I understand that were inside the RED drives were Toshiba 5200 rpm 160 Gb disks and as far as I can see they are no longer being produced, so I'm guessing that RED has had to find an affordable alternative or select a different drive and possibly have to change the controller. Hopefully that is the case and the redesigned board will be more future proof. I am guessing here - but am I close? :)
 
RAID and the 16GB CF cards! What's the status? I haven't heard anything in a while about the 16GB cards and the new CF module. I see the schedule reads September now to be caught up instead of the end of August. That blows :)
Hurry and bring on the media guys!
 
tlorenzo said:
I just don't get this either. I'm guessing (!) there's more to it than "just" manufacturing. You can get a Chinese company to pump out thousands of these controller boards a day. Housing shouldn't be a problem either - just send 5 different companies the drawings and they can spray-cast the parts in no-time. I'm guessing the problem lies in getting the drives at the right price. The ones that I understand that were inside the RED drives were Toshiba 5200 rpm 160 Gb disks and as far as I can see they are no longer being produced, so I'm guessing that RED has had to find an affordable alternative or select a different drive and possibly have to change the controller. Hopefully that is the case and the redesigned board will be more future proof. I am guessing here - but am I close? :)
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you're guessing.. and your 100% wrong.
 
and while Jarred is Officially Lying To Make Us Feel Better (and even though it was labeled as a lie I did feel better, so clearly a placebo effect) I was wondering if the 32 GB cards will be ready to ship along with my drives when they are ready? You know, the ones that let me do 60fps at 4K? :)

On a serious note- I got my camera in June (#1903) and will post when I hear from RED so others can begin to gauge shipping of theirs. I think I am more in the front of the line than some (God I hope so) so maybe it will be useful info. Just not knowing is awful. Complaining won't make it come faster, but my hands are turning purple from sitting on them...
 
heh heh heh... yeah, dont worry guys... production of the drives is ramping up this is not going to be one of those constant repetitive delays.
 
I'm thinking when they are ready, everyone will be supplied at once.

I'd doubt this is a "100 per month" situation like the EVF.
 
jimhare said:
I'm thinking when they are ready, everyone will be supplied at once.

I'd doubt this is a "100 per month" situation like the EVF.
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You're guessing.. and your 100% right.

Thanks for the grammar lesson Haakon :)

There are now about 50 drives going out every three days ( they go through a pretty extensive QA session) .. and after the last couple days the backorder situation is down to only a few hundred, so assuming everything goes well the entire backlog should be done soon. Can't tell you when exactly, but soon. Just normal manufacturing process.. but the guys are working overtime.

When the demand already is greater than the supply, and there is a small hiccup/change in the manufacturing process, we have the option to either cut corners (i.e. shorten QA or bring in less qualified Techs to do the QA ) or just stick with it and battle through and hope the customer will appreciate our diligence.

To us, cutting corners on things like Storage media is just not a good idea...
 
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