RED Processor Upgrades?

[Tom Lowe]

Jim's 3K post in recon got me to thinking again about the bottleneck that is apparently preventing 4K@60fps onboard. If I am not mistaken, the processor is the component that is too slow to crunch the data at 60fps at 4K so it can be recorded onboard. If this is the case, it would seem that a processor upgrade would solve the problem.

From Wiki:

Moore's Law describes an important trend in the history of computer hardware: that the number of transistors that can be inexpensively placed on an integrated circuit is increasing exponentially, doubling approximately every two years. The observation was first made by Intel co-founder Gordon E. Moore in a 1965 paper. The trend has continued for more than half a century and is not expected to stop for a decade at least and perhaps much longer.[5]

Almost every measure of the capabilities of digital electronic devices is linked to Moore's Law: processing speed, memory capacity, even the resolution of digital cameras. All of these are improving at (roughly) exponential rates as well.

I'm a big fan of inventor and futurist Ray Kurzweil. Kurzweil invents high-tech products similar to the RED, but what he does is PROJECT what technology will be available two or three years down the road, and then designs his products with Moore's Law fully in mind from the beginning.

For anyone interested, here is an interesting video of Kurzweil showing off a camera that can read text for blind people. He started development a couple years before the technology he needed was even available, and then once it became available, he was able to drop it right in...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6140406219828000794&hl=en

 

[Brent J. Craig]

I have said before that it would be great to start thinking about a Red Two or Red Professional.

Obviously it wouldn't be constrained by the $17.5K price point, nor would it have to fit the same form factor. It could give those of us with very high-end needs an option without diminishing the awesomeness that is Red One.

Some suggested specs:
-increased/upgradable processing power to support 4K at 60fps (min) as well as 3K/2K/1080P up to 120fps
-professional connectors: real BNCs, 3pin XLR audio, 4pin XLR power, HDSDI 4:4:4 with audio and timecode
-uncompressed RAW option
-optical or 10Gig-E outputs selectable for compression level and codec
-the option of outputting something other than Redcode, perhaps DPX (or MXF for low-end needs)?
-left-eye/right-eye metadata and sync abilities for 3D (It's coming faster than you think!)
-open-source firmware or good SDK for the hackers

-while I'm wishing I have always wanted a pony...

I hope this post isn't taken the wrong way. I just saw Red footage projected back-to-back against Dalsa Origin footage and I was shocked. Besides the fact that 'Crossing the Line' was shot on prototype cameras and firmware from the dark ages, it still looked better than anything else! That same day I also witnessed an audience totally blown away by a 3D movie shot on Sony F950s (1080 anyone?). I felt very smug knowing we can make images 4x bigger and many times better than that!

Red, Jim and team - there is a market for a Red Professional. We will pay (almost) whatever you ask. We want it all. We know the deal - deposit, waiting, betas, waiting, etc. We won't take no for an answer.

Whaddya think?

 

[C.H.Haskell]

Ok this guy is the man. Thanks for sharing Tom, and I like to think RED is built with Moore's Law in mind with its modularity.

 

[David Groundwater]

I have said before that it would be great to start thinking about a Red Two or Red Professional.

Obviously it wouldn't be constrained by the $17.5K price point, nor would it have to fit the same form factor. It could give those of us with very high-end needs an option without diminishing the awesomeness that is Red One.

Some suggested specs:
-increased/upgradable processing power to support 4K at 60fps (min) as well as 3K/2K/1080P up to 120fps
-professional connectors: real BNCs, 3pin XLR audio, 4pin XLR power, HDSDI 4:4:4 with audio and timecode
-uncompressed RAW option
-optical or 10Gig-E outputs selectable for compression level and codec
-the option of outputting something other than Redcode, perhaps DPX (or MXF for low-end needs)?
-left-eye/right-eye metadata and sync abilities for 3D (It's coming faster than you think!)
-open-source firmware or good SDK for the hackers

-while I'm wishing I have always wanted a pony...

I hope this post isn't taken the wrong way. I just saw Red footage projected back-to-back against Dalsa Origin footage and I was shocked. Besides the fact that 'Crossing the Line' was shot on prototype cameras and firmware from the dark ages, it still looked better than anything else! That same day I also witnessed an audience totally blown away by a 3D movie shot on Sony F950s (1080 anyone?). I felt very smug knowing we can make images 4x bigger and many times better than that!

Red, Jim and team - there is a market for a Red Professional. We will pay (almost) whatever you ask. We want it all. We know the deal - deposit, waiting, betas, waiting, etc. We won't take no for an answer.

Whaddya think?

so much for making obsolescence obsolete.....

i don't mind forking out more to get more, but it would be great if this could be a component at a time instead of having to chuck out the red one....

 

[Tom Lowe]

Ok this guy is the man. Thanks for sharing Tom, and I like to think RED is built with Moore's Law in mind with its modularity.

Yeah, I hope it is. We haven't heard much about how easy or difficult it will be to upgrade the chip. Might be interesting if some of the RED guys can kick us down some info about the upgrade potential.

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

If I read things correctly, I do not believe the processor is the issue.. the SENSOR'S CLOCK SPEED is the limiting factor.

And the sensor is built to be upgraded..

Problem solved

Jay

 

[Dominic Jones]

Well, there's been mentions (not necessarily carved in stone, of course) of sensor upgrades in the future, and if that is the case then there are three potential areas you would want to think about improving with any sensor:

1) Bit-depth (i.e. dynamic range)
2) Resolution
and
3) Max. Framerate

All of these would increase the data rate, and therefore would require a faster FPGA to be worthwhile. If upgrading the sensor is something that Red have been thinking about since the off, I can't believe they won't have left an upgrade path for the processors. I can believe, however, that you won't hear about it until it's about to happen - after all, who wants to announce a potential upgrade just after they've starting shipping their first bunch of cameras?!

 

[Dominic Jones]

If I read things correctly, I do not believe the processor is the issue.. the SENSOR'S CLOCK SPEED is the limiting factor.

And the sensor is built to be upgraded..

Problem solved

Jay

That's incorrect - it's been confirmed several times by Red that the sensor can handle up to 60fps @ 4K and 120fps @ 2K. Current limitations in framerate are, as Tom says, limited by the encoding engine - i.e. the FPGA's.

 

[Brent J. Craig]

... it would be great if this could be a component at a time instead of having to chuck out the red one....

Did you chuck out your Arri3 when the 435 came out? F900 in the garbage for the F950?

I think we have to accept that anything you can buy right now is built with technology that is 12 to 18 months old. As Tom mentioned, processing power has doubled in that time and I would add that storage has quadrupled.

I know everyone loves their Red Ones, but there will be a camera after that. That's all I'm saying. There is no reason why we can't have an awesome, affordable camera AND an indestructable, ridiculously-powerful, rental-house-only camera from the same manufacturer. Perhaps they could even do what some film gear suppliers do and make the top-end gear only available for lease. They control the supply, they maintain control of who owns it and how it is used, and they don't piss off other owners because no one is allowed to actually 'own' the super camera.

 

[Bruce Allen]

There is no reason why we can't have an awesome, affordable camera AND an indestructable, ridiculously-powerful, rental-house-only camera from the same manufacturer. Perhaps they could even do what some film gear suppliers do and make the top-end gear only available for lease. They control the supply, they maintain control of who owns it and how it is used, and they don't piss off other owners because no one is allowed to actually 'own' the super camera.

CrewPix.com, how is this different from using a Red One for 99% of your work and renting a Phantom HD, Phantom 65, Dalsa, F23, D20, SI-Mini, Iconix or Viper for the other 1% of work that the Red can't do optimally?

Red Two should continue in the Red One tradition, IMHO. If they can up the specs a bit while making it a trifle smaller and lighter they'd have a winner.

Red One people could upgrade the sensor and / or FPGA for a good price but personally I think that the majority of people would prefer to just trade up to a Red Two. I imagine the body would have improvements people would want too.

Although Red might not listen to every word we say on the forums, I'm sure that they have been listening to the feedback from Jackson, Soderbergh, etc and that future Red cameras (including Scarlet) will reflect this in their design.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[David Birdy]

Crewpix,

The list is very insightful..
The camera connectors are really NOT an Issue.. I would scratch that from the list as I am sure the reason for the Mini type video & audio connectors are due to the small form factor of this camera..One of the many options we love about the camera.

I am making adaptor cables...and think of them as a blessing.. No one will need to "Touch" the camera multiple times, rather the connection point.

If you need adaptor cables PM me.

For the money this camera is a "10" ......ok maybe a "9.5"...My girlfriend is the only "10" I know!

Dave

 

[REDHKSC]

Jim's 3K post in recon got me to thinking again about the bottleneck that is apparently preventing 4K@60fps onboard. If I am not mistaken, the processor is the component that is too slow to crunch the data at 60fps at 4K so it can be recorded onboard. If this is the case, it would seem that a processor upgrade would solve the problem.

From Wiki:



I'm a big fan of inventor and futurist Ray Kurzweil. Kurzweil invents high-tech products similar to the RED, but what he does is PROJECT what technology will be available two or three years down the road, and then designs his products with Moore's Law fully in mind from the beginning.

For anyone interested, here is an interesting video of Kurzweil showing off a camera that can read text for blind people. He started development a couple years before the technology he needed was even available, and then once it became available, he was able to drop it right in...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6140406219828000794&hl=en

RED should have told us the road map of New DSP development for the RED one or two ( I said again many times nowadays that 4K 24PSF are not enough for Digital Cinema projection ) and even 720P has 60/50P !!! we are ready for the " Pay to grow " for a premium performance.


Stewart
REDHKSC
HKG - CHINA

 

[Alexander Nikishin]

The only things that need upgrading on the RED One are....

Dynamic range.

It was promised to deliver 11.3, but every professional who's tested it rates it at around 9 or so stops.

Mechanical shutter or atleast a global shutter.

And 1080P 4:4:4 OUT!

 

[dino g]

I think it is a winner now!

I think it is a winner now!

IMHO. If they can up the specs a bit while making it a trifle smaller and lighter they'd have a winner.

SO, I think we have a winner NOW... and so do the TOP DoP's in Hollywood; so with all do respect, and i have a lot of respect for you bruce, THIS IS A WINNER!

We seem to have lost the revolution here now that our baby is born, it is still a miracle that we are all using a 4K camera and it is not reserved for the elite of the elite. have we forgotten that?

what are/ were/ will be the immediate alternative....?????

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

I'm fine with the camera as it is now.. fix the purple sun, the skew, and make a post flow for EVERYONE, and I will be good..

Oh, and it would be nice to have an EVF someday

Jay

 

[Brent J. Craig]

The camera connectors are really NOT an Issue..

Making thousands of feet of existing cables and facility wiring obsolete, not to mention hundreds of block batteries, IS an issue for myself and many others.

Sure we can use adaptors, and introduce signal loss and yet another point of failure into our jobs.

"Oh. I'm sorry Mr. President. We missed the last 90 seconds of your remarks because my camera is so very compact that it has entirely new connectors. You look great in 4K, by the way. Can we take that again?"

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I wouldn't say projecting your project out on Moore's law is unique to any one developer.

Every major piece of software is built for when it's released. Video games traditionally run at 5-10fps in development knowing what top of the line will deliver when they're finished a few years in the future.

Also photosite for photosite the RED doesn't have that much of an advantage over the Pricey alternatives. If the F23 for instance has a true 1080p sensor it actually has about 75% as many as the RED (remember 3 sensors). The D20 while a "1080p" camera also has quite a few more photosites than 1080p (again RGB).

RED is banking on the 4k Workflow being desireable while the competitors are assuming people want to use the tools they're used to just with a higher quality image. It's a differing of approach but from a RAW transistor account I think you'll have found that almost everybody has started development of their systems with the assumptions that the cost per transistor will have dropped significantly by the time they deliver.

I'm certain Jim looked at the long term forcasts of transistor cost for what he was manufacturing. In fact your current nice low price might be on the assumption that the margins might be slim initially but steadily expand over time and averaging out.

The problem though with "upgrades" is that in the case of an FPGA it's not usually designed to be popped out like Pentium chip. It's soldered onto the board in all likelihood and if you are going to get an upgrade it's probably going to be changing a significant amount of the board design in the process.

So you might see a processor upgrade but it might be dramatically more cost effective to simply purchase an external DSP attached through the serial port outputing any number of formats. Much like a Codex box to an HD-SDI.

 

[Bruce Allen]

SO, I think we have a winner NOW... and so do the TOP DoP's in Hollywood; so with all do respect, and i have a lot of respect for you bruce, THIS IS A WINNER!

We seem to have lost the revolution here now that our baby is born, it is still a miracle that we are all using a 4K camera and it is not reserved for the elite of the elite. have we forgotten that?

what are/ were/ will be the immediate alternative....?????

I think you misinterpret me? Perhaps I should have said "and Red Two will LIKEWISE be a winner"?

In the future time when Red Two comes out, all they'll probably need to do is deliver moderate improvements in specs and ergonomics and I'm sure they will again beat the competition in that future time hands-down.

Sorry, I wasn't clear.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

I have said before that it would be great to start thinking about a Red Two or Red Professional.

Obviously it wouldn't be constrained by the $17.5K price point, nor would it have to fit the same form factor. It could give those of us with very high-end needs an option without diminishing the awesomeness that is Red One.

Some suggested specs:
-increased/upgradable processing power to support 4K at 60fps (min) as well as 3K/2K/1080P up to 120fps
-professional connectors: real BNCs, 3pin XLR audio, 4pin XLR power, HDSDI 4:4:4 with audio and timecode
-uncompressed RAW option
-optical or 10Gig-E outputs selectable for compression level and codec
-the option of outputting something other than Redcode, perhaps DPX (or MXF for low-end needs)?
-left-eye/right-eye metadata and sync abilities for 3D (It's coming faster than you think!)
-open-source firmware or good SDK for the hackers

-while I'm wishing I have always wanted a pony...

I hope this post isn't taken the wrong way. I just saw Red footage projected back-to-back against Dalsa Origin footage and I was shocked. Besides the fact that 'Crossing the Line' was shot on prototype cameras and firmware from the dark ages, it still looked better than anything else! That same day I also witnessed an audience totally blown away by a 3D movie shot on Sony F950s (1080 anyone?). I felt very smug knowing we can make images 4x bigger and many times better than that!

Red, Jim and team - there is a market for a Red Professional. We will pay (almost) whatever you ask. We want it all. We know the deal - deposit, waiting, betas, waiting, etc. We won't take no for an answer.

Whaddya think?

So the current RED is "RED Amateur"? :huh:

 

[Teague Kennedy]

I have said before that it would be great to start thinking about a Red Two or Red Professional.

Obviously it wouldn't be constrained by the $17.5K price point, nor would it have to fit the same form factor. It could give those of us with very high-end needs an option without diminishing the awesomeness that is Red One.

Some suggested specs:
-increased/upgradable processing power to support 4K at 60fps (min) as well as 3K/2K/1080P up to 120fps
-professional connectors: real BNCs, 3pin XLR audio, 4pin XLR power, HDSDI 4:4:4 with audio and timecode
-uncompressed RAW option
-optical or 10Gig-E outputs selectable for compression level and codec
-the option of outputting something other than Redcode, perhaps DPX (or MXF for low-end needs)?
-left-eye/right-eye metadata and sync abilities for 3D (It's coming faster than you think!)
-open-source firmware or good SDK for the hackers

-while I'm wishing I have always wanted a pony...

I hope this post isn't taken the wrong way. I just saw Red footage projected back-to-back against Dalsa Origin footage and I was shocked. Besides the fact that 'Crossing the Line' was shot on prototype cameras and firmware from the dark ages, it still looked better than anything else! That same day I also witnessed an audience totally blown away by a 3D movie shot on Sony F950s (1080 anyone?). I felt very smug knowing we can make images 4x bigger and many times better than that!

Red, Jim and team - there is a market for a Red Professional. We will pay (almost) whatever you ask. We want it all. We know the deal - deposit, waiting, betas, waiting, etc. We won't take no for an answer.

Whaddya think?

Wow. There is an uncompressed raw option. But most people will not want to deal with the bandwidth. So the magic pixies created RedCode. Now you have 4k to a CF card instead of a fridge. It's good enough for Steven Soderberg. Sure, I want improvement as much as the next guy, but, let's count our blessings. There was nothing like this camera a month ago, and and there wouldn't be for quite some time if Jim hadn't been obsessed with it. Constructive critisism is one thing, but wow. If I were Jim and I read some of these posts I would loose hope for humanity.

Oh, and there is 60P in 2k to a CF card (to REDHKSC). 2K has been good enough for DI for years. Personally, for playback, 24p is the cat's meow.