RED PRO PRIMES or SUPER SPEEDS?

[Nick Morrison]

For the Scarlet, for a $25k budget what would people prefer? A set of RED PRO PRIMES, or ZEISS SUPERSPEEDS?

We already have a full set of Contax Zeiss glass, with the same coating as the Super Speeds, which is why they are so tempting. With the Super speeds on the A Cam, and Contax on B and C cam if needed, if would make a killer complete set.

Also, the few weaknesses in the Contax Line (18 F4, too slow) are vastly improved on with the Super Speeds (18 T1.3).


Otherwise, the advantage of the Super Speeds seems to be: smaller, faster, and has a nice, vintage look. Cons: can be a bit soft, no? Do these cover 5k? No way the will cover 6K, whenever that arrives on Dragon sensor.

For the Red Pro Primes, the advantage seems to be they could be sharper. But they are heavier. They are newer, so maybe easier to service? The flare isn't great. And the are very heavy. They cover 5K and I imagine 6k whenever that arrives.

Thoughts? Some input from you guys will be very helpful, and much appreciated.

Thanks everyone!

- Nick

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Well, you sum it up quite nicely...

the 18, 25 & 35 RPP are rather on the heavy side...
The rest is quite nice and small.

The Focus Marks on the RPPs aren't too many, but the precission on the superspeeds is not MasterPrime material either...

I'd have taken the RPPs if weight wasn't a primary concern.

If weight is the major issue... Well... you have the answer

G

 

[Robert L. Mickles]

I like them both. It's really up to personal preference.

 

[Dan Kanes]

Where can you get superspeeds for $25,000?
(I don't count MKI unless you are ready for some compromises)

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Perspective from lots of time with 'Speeds & RPPs

Perspective from lots of time with 'Speeds & RPPs

I bought SuperSpeeds for my RedOne in the fall of 2007 and loved the organic, smooth look - not to mention the advantage of fast glass on the original M sensor/early color science.

Sold them in 2009 to buy RPP's seeking greater resolution, better contrast and modern coatings/flare handling.

After 2 years, I would say that in 85% of situations I find myself in (I shoot in many different genres from spots to features and have to rig for everything from hand held to jibs) the RPPs give me a better outcome both in functionality and image quality. There are times when the size and weight of the RPPs is a PITA.

As Evin correctly notes the 'Speeds lack contrast under 2.8 so while they are technically T1.3 WFO, I found I needed to get to a 2/2.8 split to get a tight image. There were times when that softer, lower contrast "look" at wider stops was gorgeous, particularly on human faces and for moody scenes, but sometimes it just looked soft. The RPPs have almost as much contrast at T1.8 as they do at any stop, so it could be argued that even though T1.3 is faster than T1.8 that the real world results might actually favor the RPPs in low illumination situations.

Super Speeds:
If you like the more dimensional, organic, smooth, flarey, classic film look the 'Speeds will make you very happy. Their size and weight are an excellent match to the compact Epics & Scarlets. The build quality is excellent and with proper maintenance their age is not a big factor. Even at an optimal stop (5.6/8) they will never resolve like newer lenses - of course the upside is you aren't likely to need any diffusion filters ;-)

RPPs:
If you aren't put off by the size and weight (or the lack of focus marks on the barrel), the RPPs are simply the best value on the market. The mechanics are a step below Zeiss or Cooke, but its a small step - these are professional quality cine lenses capable of smooth pulls. When used with a decent FF, its easy enough to make all the focus marks you need on the disc which makes the lack of marks on the barrel moot. IMHO the images look a lot like Zeiss Ultra Primes (UPs) in comparison tests I've been involved with, for a lot less coin.

Marketplace:
On a final note, the best lenses I have ever seen, by a wide margin, are the Leica C primes. They are far more expensive than the OPs budget would allow and Band Pro has a waiting list that makes waiting for the Bomb EVF seem short. I bring them up, because that is the only prime set I know of that is enough better than the RPPs to justify a significantly higher price tag. Yes, the Master Primes are a step above the RPP's but IMHO it is too small of a step to justify the huge price differential and due to the specialized maintenance they require, a problematic choice for personal ownership. Fincher & Cronenweth used the MPs to great advantage on GWDT where their performance wide open was critical to the look they were striving for. With the right project and budget, renting MPs makes total sense - owning, not so much unless you run a serious rental house.

Cheers - #19

 

[Nick Morrison]

These are all great answers, thanks all. Yeah, I love my CONTAX Glass, the closest I have to a Super Speed look I imagine. But everyone's arguments for the RPP's are very compelling. They just seem so heavy for the Scarlet/Epic.

But I guess if we need lighter glass, we just throw on one of my Contax!

Will the Contax and RPP's be hard to cut between? The RED is so forgiving that way in the grade, I'm not sure it will even be an issue.

Thoughts?

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Strongly suggest you test the intercut-ability before buying a set of lenses, particularly if you anticipate using the Contax glass as part of your lens compliment for multi-cam over an extended period of time.

I do agree that many image aspects inherent to particular lenses can be massaged in modern DI tools to more closely match the character of dissimilar lenses. That said, it is not a path I would head down lightly and the closer they are to start with the more likely you are to have a good outcome. Did I mention testing... ,-)

Cheers - #19

 

[Nick Wernham]

I bought SuperSpeeds for my RedOne in the fall of 2007 and loved the organic, smooth look - not to mention the advantage of fast glass on the original M sensor/early color science.

Sold them in 2009 to buy RPP's seeking greater resolution, better contrast and modern coatings/flare handling.

After 2 years, I would say that in 85% of situations I find myself in (I shoot in many different genres from spots to features and have to rig for everything from hand held to jibs) the RPPs give me a better outcome both in functionality and image quality. There are times when the size and weight of the RPPs is a PITA.

As Evin correctly notes the 'Speeds lack contrast under 2.8 so while they are technically T1.3 WFO, I found I needed to get to a 2/2.8 split to get a tight image. There were times when that softer, lower contrast "look" at wider stops was gorgeous, particularly on human faces and for moody scenes, but sometimes it just looked soft. The RPPs have almost as much contrast at T1.8 as they do at any stop, so it could be argued that even though T1.3 is faster than T1.8 that the real world results might actually favor the RPPs in low illumination situations.

Super Speeds:
If you like the more dimensional, organic, smooth, flarey, classic film look the 'Speeds will make you very happy. Their size and weight are an excellent match to the compact Epics & Scarlets. The build quality is excellent and with proper maintenance their age is not a big factor. Even at an optimal stop (5.6/8) they will never resolve like newer lenses - of course the upside is you aren't likely to need any diffusion filters ;-)

RPPs:
If you aren't put off by the size and weight (or the lack of focus marks on the barrel), the RPPs are simply the best value on the market. The mechanics are a step below Zeiss or Cooke, but its a small step - these are professional quality cine lenses capable of smooth pulls. When used with a decent FF, its easy enough to make all the focus marks you need on the disc which makes the lack of marks on the barrel moot. IMHO the images look a lot like Zeiss Ultra Primes (UPs) in comparison tests I've been involved with, for a lot less coin.

Marketplace:
On a final note, the best lenses I have ever seen, by a wide margin, are the Leica C primes. They are far more expensive than the OPs budget would allow and Band Pro has a waiting list that makes waiting for the Bomb EVF seem short. I bring them up, because that is the only prime set I know of that is enough better than the RPPs to justify a significantly higher price tag. Yes, the Master Primes are a step above the RPP's but IMHO it is too small of a step to justify the huge price differential and due to the specialized maintenance they require, a problematic choice for personal ownership. Fincher & Cronenweth used the MPs to great advantage on GWDT where their performance wide open was critical to the look they were striving for. With the right project and budget, renting MPs makes total sense - owning, not so much unless you run a serious rental house.

Cheers - #19

Twice in one day you come through with some great advice on PL glass, Blair. I still want to do a bit of renting and try out different sets of primes, but based on this I am leaning more and more towards the RPPs. They seem like such a good value.