Red Primes

[laguun]

The RedRock mattebox will function and if you are a private owner and never plan to rent out your gear to a professional production than you'll likely be fine. But I would never show up on a pro paying gig with one. It fills a niche, but it is not the same as the Arri product which is admittedly much more expensive.

Hi Mitch,

we currently offer chrosziel and arri MB.
I didnt use redrock yet.

Why do you feel one should not use it for commercial production?

Do you think the bulid quality is anything than fully professional?
Do you think that the image would be anything different from Arri/Chrosziel?
Are there any functional limits?

I am asking as i didnt have had a chance to test the redock out but several professional and well acclaimed DoPs keep asking us if an when we will offer it for rent.

 

[Mitch Gross]

Laguun-
I feel like you're almost baiting me to say something negative!

Seriously, the build quality and versatility will not be the same because some things had to give for a vastly less expensive product. I'm not going to go into it more than that, other than to say that if clients are asking you for one, how wrong can you go if you buy one for $700?

As for breaking down some nice mattebox bundles, Abel has already done this. We offer special reduser bundles on the Arri MB20, the Arri LMB-15 and the Vocas MB-450. We also offer Chrosziel products and can make sweet deals on these as well. Different people have different needs depending on what lenses and filters they plan to use and their expected shooting style. If all you need is a clip-on 4x5.65 2-stage mattebox, the Arri LMB-15 is terrific. If you want more of a studio rig then the others I just mentioned are excellent. We even offer a deal on the massive Arri MB-14, which is the beast you need for monsters like the Optimo 12x.

I've posted details on the packages here before, so you can do a search, but better yet would be to contact an Abel sales rep. in either NY or LA to get a quote. That person will tailor the mattebox particulars to your needs (number of stages, 15mm or 19mm, etc.).

We sell LOTS of accessories to redusers and we're happy to discuss your needs and send you quotes. We have a worldwide client base and I think I can safely say that Abel has sold more matteboxes (along with followfocuses, tripods, Arri lenses and other gear) to redusers than any other company. That's not meant to be a boast -- more to say that we've done this quite a bit and understand your particular needs and interests.

 

[Finner]

Hi Mitch,

we currently offer chrosziel and arri MB.
I didnt use redrock yet.

Why do you feel one should not use it for commercial production?

Do you think the bulid quality is anything than fully professional?
Do you think that the image would be anything different from Arri/Chrosziel?
Are there any functional limits?

I am asking as i didnt have had a chance to test the redock out but several professional and well acclaimed DoPs keep asking us if an when we will offer it for rent.

I checked out the redrock MB very closely at NAB. It is not an ARRI but it is very, very good. I am not easily impressed but this MB is damn good and much better then any MB currently offered at 4 to 5 times as much. I would not hesitate to use it on a paid professional shoot. I am getting one for sure.

Check a full review of the RedRock MB and some other great NAB offerings on my new Red 3rd party review website

www.finnerknowsbest.com

cheers
Daren

 

[laguun]

Laguun-
I feel like you're almost baiting me to say something negative!

Hi Mitch,

i had the impression you said something pretty negative (you wouldnt recommend the redrock for commercial production) but i didnt hear any reason why you wouldnt recommend them for prime-time professional production.

Abel is a good company, and if you would say the built quality (or something else) would be only mediocre (or even bad) i would really consider this an important information.

My point is:
Several clients who flew to Vegas and looked at the Redrock said to us:
"Its as good as your Arri / Chrosziel, you should 100% offer this!". My schedule is so tight right now, i didnt make it to NAB this year (I prefer IBC anyhow, due to the D-Cinema which is missing @NAB) and therefore thought, ok, lets add some redrocks then, until i read your post in which you said you wouldnt recommend it for pro-production, while our customers 100% say its excellent for pro-production and now i am a little confused.

If you have something bad to say about redrock (with the highest quality-demands), then i fully understand that you as a competent representative of a respected competitor dont want to say it in public - could yu maybe send me a PM then to keep it private?

Seriously, the build quality and versatility will not be the same because some things had to give for a vastly less expensive product. I'm not going to go into it more than that, other than to say that if clients are asking you for one, how wrong can you go if you buy one for $700?

I only want to offer excellent gear - and even if its only 300$ but not very good for professional production i wouldnt buy i.
But today often the inexpensive products are much better manufactured than the more expensive ones (ferraris DO break more often than volkswagen) and/or offer better technology (i would clearly say that the inexpensive red one outperforms the more expensive Arri D20 in many aspects, as resolution, framerate, sensitivity etc).

 

[laguun]

I checked out the redrock MB very closely at NAB. It is not an ARRI but it is very, very good. I am not easily impressed but this MB is damn good and much better then any MB currently offered at 4 to 5 times as much. I would not hesitate to use it on a paid professional shoot. I am getting one for sure.

Check a full review of the RedRock MB and some other great NAB offerings on my new Red 3rd party review website

www.finnerknowsbest.com

cheers
Daren

Hey Finner,

so you would use the RR for commercial production? Mitchs comment was the first one i have eard indicating the opposite.

p.s.
-nice(!)- website, i might start a "laguunknowsbetter.de" to underline the german engineering cliche about always being picky and en detail.

 

[albert rudnicki]

Mitch,
With all the respect I have for you, it seams more like a sales-talk to me, not an independent opinion.
For those who really want to find out if it's pro enough. I suggest to wait for some user reviews.

 

[Greg M]

I dont think Mitch said this was not "pro enough"...I have used Arri and Chrosziel MB's for many years...and when I heard everyone at NAB saying that this new MB looked as good as the Arri I went and looked myself. It is a very nice matte box...

...but, it is not nearly in the class as the Arri MB20! That being said, the rr looks like a nice option, and especially considering the price difference, it is a great deal.

If you are planning on renting your gear, I would suggest going with the Arri. If your camera package is for your own use or even light rentals to low budget stuff, then get the Redrock...it is a great MB for the money.

If I had a choice when renting, I would choose the Arri everytime. If budget were a issue I would most definitely choose the RedRock...but honestly an Arri rents for $10-$25/day (if not free), so its not a huge impact on most rental budgets. Most AC's I know would not accept the redrock in my rental package.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

What Greg said... But let's see how well the RR holds up in actual use, some aspects of it were being changed for the shipping units vs. what was shown at NAB.

Anyway, looks to be a great mattebox at most any current mattebox price. No, I also don't think it's equivalent to an MB-20, but it's still very nice. The price of the RR is just a real nice bonus to the deal.

 

[Dave Weber]

The only thing i didn't like about the RR was that it didn't have a Round filter for a pola. Other than that i thought it was pretty great.

 

[Mitch Gross]

Like I said, I'm not going to sit here and dis the RedRock mattebox. There are some aspects of its design that will not fly with a professional AC on bigger budget work. Here are two.

1- The light trap ring is a sheet of neoprene or foam (can't recall which) instead of a solid delrin ring correctly sized for the given lens.

2 - The swingaway mechanism is quite bulky and extends far to the right side of the camera, and it has much more vibrational play in it than other matteboxes.

There, you've gotten me to say two "negative" things about the RedRock mattebox, which is to say that I simply described two aspects of the design rather than commented on how well anything is designed or manufactured. Again, this mattebox is dramatically less expensive than the competition so there can be some forgiveness here. But not by a rental client who doesn't care how much the mattebox cost for you to buy, but just wants it to work perfectly no questions asked. Many ACs will see the foam lens ring and say forget it. Doesn't mean that a foam lens ring design won't work, just not for them.

I hope this doesn't come off as bashing or "product repping" as I'm really not trying to do that. Brian is a nice guy and created revolutionary lower-cost product before RED existed and I wish him the best. Noby but noby comes close to offering the amount of features this mattebox does at this price point. But in the end that is not the point to rental clients who don't care what it costs to buy.

I think the RedRock mattebox can fulfill many RED owners needs for their personal use. But I would not want to advise someone to buy it for rental use and have it turned down by the renters with every job. And I fear that would happen more often than not.

Buy stuff from us or don't buy stuff from us. Buy Brian's mattebox or don't. Just don't buy or not buy based on misguided beliefs.

 

[laguun]

Like I said, I'm not going to sit here and dis the RedRock mattebox. There are some aspects of its design that will not fly with a professional AC on bigger budget work. Here are two.

1- The light trap ring is a sheet of neoprene or foam (can't recall which) instead of a solid delrin ring correctly sized for the given lens.

2 - The swingaway mechanism is quite bulky and extends far to the right side of the camera, and it has much more vibrational play in it than other matteboxes.

There, you've gotten me to say two "negative" things about the RedRock mattebox, which is to say that I simply described two aspects of the design rather than commented on how well anything is designed or manufactured. Again, this mattebox is dramatically less expensive than the competition so there can be some forgiveness here.

Thanks Mitch,

now i understand more precise your concern.

I dont think you said "negative" things - you described the product in a favorable way and also outlined its shortcoming. I understand your position, i was only alarmed when you said "not for pro use".

I agree that the 2 issues could be critical. I would not consider them problematic, but as slight disadvantage compared to our arris/chrosziel. If those are the mayor issues, i think we might add some to our inventory.

 

[Finner]

Like I said, I'm not going to sit here and dis the RedRock mattebox. There are some aspects of its design that will not fly with a professional AC on bigger budget work.

I worked as an AC on Shanghi Noon, Xmen2, Brokeback mountain and about 20 others of similair size. I believe that they may fit in the category of bigger budget work.

1- The light trap ring is a sheet of neoprene or foam (can't recall which) instead of a solid delrin ring correctly sized for the given lens.

AC's use neoprene doughnuts quite often. I do not see this as being much of a problem. Sure a precise rubber retainer bellows with a perfectly matched delrin ring is best, a neoprene doughnut style bellows is very common and not a very big compromise.

Now not having a bellows that will accept a 138mm pola is IMO a bigger concern. Though at NAB I mentioned it to Brian and he was very open to the idea and mentioned that it was an option they were looking into. I suspect a 138mm filter retainer bellows with more of the typical rubber/delrin system is something that could become a likely option in the future. Also it appears that an ARRI bellows will fit on the RR MB so if the rubber/delrin bellows is an absolute must then they have the ARRI option.

2 - The swingaway mechanism is quite bulky and extends far to the right side of the camera, and it has much more vibrational play in it than other matteboxes.

Brian mentioned to myself and everyone else I saw at his booth when I was there that the metal of the swingaway system was going to be upgraded to a much stronger/stiffer/thicker metal for the production models.

Mitch you can check out my full thoughts on the Red Rock MB at www.finnerknowsbest.com

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Even so I'm not a so called experienced user, i have been doing extensive research for all the pro gear, which I'm purchasing for my company.

Especially in the past two years, I have personally visited about every manufacturer, of any of the products of interest, and when that was not possible, I visited the dealers, or rental companies which carry their products.

I considered my self to have gain a great prospective of the products and their quality as well as their popularity among their various user groups.

I do find that it is true, of some Pro's attitude on non popular name products to be introduced in their domain, but this is rapidly changing, and RED has been the perfect case, closely fallowed since the very beginning.

I have to agree that in some products it is very difficult to accept the new products, such as it is the case for cameras, and lenses, but when it comes down to a an MB, I thinks that there has to be more flexibility, at the end of the day is just a "SHADE", and even so I must admit that the MB20II is the best MB in the market, my opinion, the RR MB, is the absolute best MB in the market at is price point, and at even three times its price point.

Is it better then many of those up to three time the price? Yes it is!

Is it better then the MB20 II, well I don't think it is, for several reason, among the most important, accessories, now if the RR MB was completely compatible with all ARRI rings and various accessories, well then it will be a very stiff competitive product, because of the price point, and the build quality, while not at par with that of ARRI's MB20 II, it is very good, and I'm glad I have one coming.

When RED's MB becomes available, I'll also buy one of them, and then I'll be able to make a fair decision of what will be best for me, and if I'm not happy, I'll just sale both and buy the ARRI MB20 II, but before forging out five time the price, you can bet that I'll buy RR MB, well actually I already did.

Great Job Brian.

Ciao

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Fair points, Mitch. But I think it's too early to tell what we're actually going to get in regards to those two issues you have brought up.

The rubber doughnuts on the NAB floor were neoprene. These were a temporary situation for the show, but I don't recall what the final implementation would be. However I've encountered my fair share of custom cut neoprene and vinyl rings with rented Arri and Chrosziel matteboxes. I'm with Finner on the lack of a front stage for a circular pola. But this is something that is being investigated for future options. The mattebox is modular and stages can be added / removed.

As for the swing away arm, once again, I don't think anyone has seen the final version. So we don't know what we're getting there just yet. Brian said they have made it more sturdy for the shipping version... I don't know what that means for how far it sticks out, etc.. I guess we will see when the matteboxes start arriving to customers.

 

[Mitch Gross]

This is crazy -- people are agreeing with me and disagreeing at the same time. I mentioned two things, simply because they were easy, simple factual statements. I could mention other things but I choose not to. And still I say that the RedRock mattebox is the best deal for the price, but I'm looked at as a critic. It is what it is and if that works for you, then go for it. It's less than $700 -- buy it and if you don't like it sell the thing. Done.

 

[Brian Valente]

Hi everyone

I don't have to add a lot here - let the products speak for themselves. If you want an Arri MB-20, there is a company named Arri that makes a product called an MB-20, and if you have $4,000-$5,000 to spend, they will be happy to fulfill your needs. And there are companies like Abel who will happily sell or rent it as well.

Redrock philosophy is really straightfoward: If you want to own products with three basic design criteria (low cost, no-compromise quality, and features from community involvement) then Redrock may be for you. I think the interest in the microMatteBox from RedUser community is because we incorporated many of the requests/suggestions you said you wanted in a matte box (metal filter holders, no plastic for critical elements, swing-away, native 19mm arm, etc.)

If you are a Red owner and rent your gear, just do the math on how much it will cost you to recoup the expense of a microMatteBox in rentals. I respect Mitch's opinion, but we've already had the microMatteBox on professional sets here in LA, and they are pleased with the microMB performance.

We will also be showing the microMatteBox at Cinegear for those of you who missed it at NAB. Stop on by and decide for yourself.

Thanks again for the opportunity to comment

Brian

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

This is crazy -- people are agreeing with me and disagreeing at the same time.

Don't take it in a bad way, Mitch. Some of us here (me for sure) appreciate your input. Hopefully I didn't come across as if I was striking up an argument. Perhaps I was picking nits, but really I was just pointing out that what was on the NAB show floor will differ from the final product. And none of us have seen that final product yet.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Hi everyone

I don't have to add a lot here - let the products speak for themselves. If you want an Arri MB-20, there is a company named Arri that makes a product called an MB-20, and if you have $4,000-$5,000 to spend, they will be happy to fulfill your needs. And there are companies like Abel who will happily sell or rent it as well.

Redrock philosophy is really straightfoward: If you want to own products with three basic design criteria (low cost, no-compromise quality, and features from community involvement) then Redrock may be for you. I think the interest in the microMatteBox from RedUser community is because we incorporated many of the requests/suggestions you said you wanted in a matte box (metal filter holders, no plastic for critical elements, swing-away, native 19mm arm, etc.)

If you are a Red owner and rent your gear, just do the math on how much it will cost you to recoup the expense of a microMatteBox in rentals. I respect Mitch's opinion, but we've already had the microMatteBox on professional sets here in LA, and they are pleased with the microMB performance.

We will also be showing the microMatteBox at Cinegear for those of you who missed it at NAB. Stop on by and decide for yourself.

Thanks again for the opportunity to comment

Brian

Hi Brian,

good to see you in here, after all we are talking about your products

BTW, I'll see you at NAB for sure, as I'll be at the LEDz booth and will feature a little surprise for this community as well.

See you next month.

Ciao

 

[Pawel Achtel]

110mm for the primes, 114mm for the compact zooms, 142mm for the 18-85mm.

Wasn't that 117mm for the current 300mm? Is this going to change to 110mm to match other primes or is 300mm always going to stay at 117mm?