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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED Prime kit or CP2 kit...

James_Mills

James_Mills

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I'm about to take out a loan to upgrade to a dragon and feel that I need to finally get some industry standard lenses along with it. Which kit would you recommend? Which would rent better? Which would land bigger narrative work? Which do you personally like more?

I've used both and enjoy each but I don't notice as a big a difference in these lenses as all you guys on here. The only thing I noticed was some CA on the CP2s and that the REDs are incredibly sharp (almost to a fault if that makes sense?)...
 
Is covering 6K important to you? If so, the RPPs aren't going to cut it (at least on the wide end). Most of the CP2s have a bit of CA when wide open, but they're generally well-known and fairly well-received by people working in film/video and would probably make you and your gear marginally more marketable than if you went with the RPPs (although not entirely for rational reasons). I'd consult with other CP2 owners/enthusiasts before getting a set, because there are a few dogs in there alongside some pretty solid designs (I.E. the 50/1.4 and it's CP2 equivalent are awful).

If you don't need an entire set right away, I'd give the new full frame Schneiders a close look. Aside from some CA on the 35mm when wide open, they're looking like a pretty stellar offering at the $4K/lens price point.
 
CP2 for sure, because of:

- lightweight
- EF mount or PL mount is a huge advantage
- not to big
- zeiss name, rents easier
 
I'm not wildly enthusiastic about the CP2s to say the least. But they do (I think) rent easier.

The RPPs are technically better in almost every meaningful way. They're dreadfully under-appreciated especially in rental.

One thing: 5K on Dragon is going to need a smaller image circle than 5K on MX. So you might not be good for 6K, but you'll be better for 5K.

If you're buying primarily to shoot, especially on RED, RPP. If you're buying primarily to rent... CP2. Sad to say. My 10c worth.

Mike
 
Don't get a loan. If you can't pay for the sensor, then weight until you have the money. Just my opinion. I've operated my studio for 8 years on this principle and it's stress free. The number one reason studios go belly up is because they are too far leveraged.
 
RPP's are certainly one of the best deals in pro lenses.

The new Schneiders look fantastic, but it's not clear when their full line will be available
 
Hmmm... OK. Some thoughts on this.

I agree with others, don't get a loan. I guess if you feel that's the way to do it... But the Dragon sensor upgrades will be available down the road, you don't have to saddle yourself up with debt just to grab the latest sensor.

The RPP's kick the CP.2's ass six ways to sunday. The advantages of the CP.2s are size and weight. They all cover FF35 except their garbage 18mm. IMO, the disadvantages of the CP.2's outweigh the advantages. ...Inconsistent apertures and looks for starters.

All of the RPP's will cover Dragon 6K with the exception of the 18mm.

Dragon is not FF35, but if you want a set of lenses that cover FF, take a serious look at the Schneider Xenon primes. These lenses are freaking beautiful and are positioned in the market to compete with the CP.2's. They're compact and light, cover FF35, make pretty pictures, at least in the little bit I've tested. They're priced at about $4K per lens. Only 3 focal lengths available now, more to come late this year and next year.

If FF35 isn't as important and you don't mind the larger size/weight similar to RPP's, take a look at the Schneider Xenar III primes.

You can't go wrong with a set of RPP's, but they don't rent as well as something with the Zeiss label. And with them out of production....

Don't forget to consider the Cooke mini S4's or the Illumina S35's. Also in a similar pricing bracket to the CP.2's. I can't comment on how well they would cover Dragon though. I know they'll more than cover 5K on Dragon, but to go a full 6K may be pushing it on the wide end.
 
I really like your shooting when your doing more shallow depth of field. I have RPP/CP2's and also Nikons. I'd think the Nikons
could be a real great fit for your style (music video's and corporate stuff). Are you going for the dragon scarlet upgrade? If so either lens will work.
I see a lot of great corporate work done on Nikon's and they also have that "classic" look I think your good at shooting.

I btw think's it's not the bestest of times to get into camera rentals unless you completely understand your market & getting a loan for a single camera to rent is like getting a loan for gambling.
 
I looked at both sets very closely before settling on a set of the Zeisses, so hopefully, this'll be of some help to you:

RPPs are super sharp, but subjectively their 'look' leaves me a little flat. Their witness markings leave a lot to be desired and as a set they're a bit weird and unwieldy in the different sizes and shapes they come in.

The CP.2s have (IMO) a lovely, punchy, modern 'look'. For anything contemporary or futuristic they provide a great image (I wouldn't choose them for a period-piece, but anything modern they seem to suit). They're consistent across the range with size and weight, and their witness markings are terrific, and make precise, repeatable focus easy.

With the Red sensor size creeping larger and larger, I don't think the RPPs really make much sense these days if you're primarily shooting on Red cameras (for Arri/Sony/Canon S35mm sensors they'll be fine).

Personally I just love the look of the Zeiss glass, I coveted it in my stills photography, and I adore it in my cinematography. I think at the end of the day you have to make a decision based on your practical needs and taste in 'look'. Then go with whichever lenses create the sorts of images you want to create.
 
I will weigh in.
The reality is that the CP.2's are the only complete line out there for the moment.
I don't think they are the best in terms of consistency as already duly noted.
We don't know when the full set of Schneiders will come to the market, it could be another 2 years before that happens.
Nor do we know when Canon will bring a very necessary 35mm into it's line.
Sony may come into the game next year.

However, the real question is what are your needs for today?
If you need a full set of entry level "cine" primes at a price that won't break your bank in the near term CP.2's are the only option.
Otherwise it's modified stills glass (which is a great option) or rentals.
If you can wait, then wait. If not buy the CP.2's and sell them later.
You won't lose too much on your investment in my opinion.

What I think about the RPP's is this.

The general tendency of the market is towards smaller and lighter.
People have grown accustomed to the new ergonomy.
This has big consequences for all of your accessories.

It means smaller, lighter tripods, mattebox's, jibs, etc.
This will save a lot of money too, and that sounds like a priority right now.
In my opinion that too is the real reason why the CP.2's are renting, not just because they have Zeiss on them.
The RPP's are kind of old school in terms of size and weight.

My priority has become ease of use.
It is better for me to be producing lot's of work, than searching for perfection.
I have to believe that will take me a lot further than a set of expensive lenses.
 
With the upcoming Dragon updates in mind and the tendency to make bigger and more light sensitive sensors, lighter cameras, etc, I strongly believe anyone planning on invest in RPP's or CP2's would make the wiser choice with the Zeiss glass. RPP are great lenses for an owner/operator or someone who shoots his own projects and doesn't mind about their weight, but they are very hard to rent, as most clients prefer the Zeiss/Cooke/Angenieux name on the lenses, plus the CP2's main disavantage (T/2.9 on the 15mm and 21mm, forget about the 18mm) shouldn't be a concern anymore at 2000 ASA (unless you're after a super shallow depth). I already own a set of standard speed EF/PL mounted CP2's and they are so sought to be used with Scarlets, C300, 1DX, BMC, etc. that I may be buying another set soon or at least, the missing focal lenghts of my current set (the new T/2.1 25mm plus the 100mm or 135mm).

That being said, I wouldn't shoot a feature on CP2's unless I'd need the Zeiss look on a tight budget, but for TV and web delivery, they are quite good.
 
Last edited:
Clayton Burkhart said:
It is better for me to be producing lot's of work, than searching for perfection.
I have to believe that will take me a lot further than a set of expensive lenses.
Click to expand...

Clayton, this is a great, great observation. And I agree with you, 100%. I would much rather be doing lots of work, than trying to be perfect (with high budget cine glass). In my particular case, I have pretty extensive set of modded Contax glass, that provide untold versatility. Being able to quickly switch focal lengths, shoot multicam, and have all the lenses on 77mm threads is a huge plus. I can afford to buy all my favorite diffusion at 77mm (and get extensive sets at that), and I can also afford to buy two copies of my favorite portrait lenses (try shooting comedians with one camera; you really need minimum two).

So in a funny way, I almost feel modded ZF's are more versatile and "fast" than CP2s. Optics are the same.

The full frame Schneiders to me are the only new lenses I'd seriously consider for an in-house kit. But even then it may take a while before the full set is out.
 
Mike 'Fireman' Ross said:
I'm not wildly enthusiastic about the CP2s to say the least. But they do (I think) rent easier.

Mike
Click to expand...


This is true, I bought mine just to rent to a client that wanted them... I haven't seen them for longer than 2-3 days since I bought them. Although the NYC / NJ / Tristate area is pretty saturated with these So I would definitely check your market first. Ask around and such.
 
Just before you go and buy, also consider what cameras you will be shooting on, if the lenses may be for rental then consider that the RPP's will not fit on a lot of other cameras without modification of the PL mount ( on the camera ). I tried my RPP's ( before I sold them ) on Arri Sr3, Alexa, Aaton, Moviecam and on all the cameras I had to remove the lugs on the PL mount ( on camera ) as they clashed with the RPP's. I'm not sure about using them on say F55 etc, but it may be a similar problem. The RPP's are sharp, but leave something to be desired on the design and mechanical front, I have seen sets with mis-matched witness marks and lots of backlash on the focus, I think the backlash was due to them being used on Preston units and the ends stops being damaged, however most lenses these days are designed with that in mind and end stops are pretty heavy duty. This is all based on my experience with these lenses as an owner and other sets I have used. The CP2's do have their pitfalls most of which have been mentioned in previous threads, but they will fit every camera they are used on and the build quality is very solid and accurate. There are many new optics coming on the market, have a look about, don't rush into, if you do buy a set of RPP's make sure you have a professional lens tech look them over. Hope this helps you make a decision. Good luck.
 
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