RED Price change?

[Pierre Le Blanc]

Anybody is anticipating a price drop on RED cameras anytime soon?
I meant now with the release of the C200 and people getting the camera in their hands with in next couple of weeks.

I know c200 is Not for everybody but for a lot of people EOS mount only and this new Canon RAW (limited WB) is enough. But in the other hand they are gaining lot of benefits like, Size, Weight, Battery Consumption, Low Light and more importantly price. Cameras like Raven and Scarlet-W seem Like a bad investment at this time.

I know a lot of pros been happy with the C300II image quality so If this C200 is close enough I think most people will have a hard time comparing images against 5K red.

URSA RAW had nice specifications on paper but in practice low light was terrible but I think Canon is a more experienced company with lot of experience in Color Science and Skin Tones.

Right not to have a RAVEN kit is $15K with this money you can basically purchase two C200's, When RED was the only respectable manufacturer with RAW capabilities the price was a stealth but know Japanese Companies are playing the game I think something need to change in RED's front.

I have been saving years to finally purchase a RAW cameras and right now seem is even more difficult to make the decision.

 

[Tom Dowler]

Right not to have a RAVEN kit is $15K with this money you can basically purchase two C200's

eh... not really. That kit includes a lens, two batteries and (a small amount of) media. C200s come with 1 battery, so you'd need to add a couple more, plus CFast cards, plus the cost of the lens.

But I do think the C200 looks like an interesting camera. I want to know what the limitations of Raw light are. They have a session on weds 8/16 in Burbank that is probs worth going to, although it conflicts with Phil Holland's Sigma thing at Red Hollywood.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

RED does enjoy a couple of advantages that haven't been equaled by anyone else just yet. Basically, their REDraw codec is unsurpassed n terms of an optimized relationship among image quality, image manipulation, and data size. On a marketing front, from what I see, RED is still the only camera used heavily in the film industry besides Arri. And RED continues to have ongoing challenges shipping their cameras on an immediate basis so it doesn't look like they are hurting for orders. Finally, their modularity, upgrade programs and continued technological advances do seem to keep REDusers loyal.

I am not holding my breath for a "buy one get one free" RED promotion. LOL

 

[Pierre Le Blanc]

eh... not really. That kit includes a lens, two batteries and (a small amount of) media. C200s come with 1 battery, so you'd need to add a couple more, plus CFast cards, plus the cost of the lens.

But I do think the C200 looks like an interesting camera. I want to know what the limitations of Raw light are. They have a session on weds 8/16 in Burbank that is probs worth going to, although it conflicts with Phil Holland's Sigma thing at Red Hollywood.

As far as I know the batery included in the c200 kit will last for 120min I would be suspriced if the two bateries included with the Raven Kit will last more than 90 minutes. 120gb Cfast is about $300 usd. Mybe not excatly 2 cameras but pretty close. Another interesting thing to consider is that Crop factor in the raven is very close to Micro 4/3 1,8x or soemthing?



I hope to get my hands in a C200 as soon as possible.

 

[Samir Patel]

Not likely. In the past RED has dropped prices when they have had newer lower cost components (passing on the savings to customers). I've also seen RED increase prices when there was supply shortages due to supply chain. I remember back to when I bought a Scarlet MX the price had increased because of those issues. Regardless... does Mercedes really care what Toyota or Honda price their automobiles? No if I'm in the market for a Mercedes and I want a Mercedes WTF do I care what a Toyota or Honda costs? I don't want that. RED is RED, Canon is Canon. Both can get the job done but one is not the other.

P.S. I drive a Honda. Same one since 2001. But I'm crazy I like to save and spend my money on other things like equipment that I can count on and delivers for me the quality that I demand. (and avoid that dreaded feeling of 'damn I need to go back and shoot everything all over because now I finally have a better camera')

 

[Matt Bai]

Would definitely be a weird time to "drop prices."

 

[Zack Birlew]

I've pondered this as well although I think it's probably safe to say that RED's lineup won't be affected much if at all for a good while yet. I would think that dropping $2-3K off of a RED Raven and Scarlet-W would be a good move if RED wanted to get into the sub-$10K market and knock around with Panasonic, Canon, and Sony. However, there is a definite quality difference between other manufacturers and RED so they may be fine where they're at, I don't know. If sales figures are low for the low end RED cameras then slashing the price a little would be the thing to do but it doesn't sound like that at all and, if anything, it sounds like the Raven and Scarlet-W are selling more than the higher end RED cameras to serve as B-Cams, crash cameras, and starter bodies for new RED owners. If there's going to be a price drop, I would think that would come from the high end once production really ramps up but kind of stops past the Epic-W.

Now, what may really drop in price is the used RED market. I don't know how much but I wouldn't be surprised if Dragons started going down to sub-$10K levels. Really, it all depends on how good the C200 and EVA1 turn out to be, we'll see soon enough.

 

[Alex Lubensky]

1. No
2. Canon is terrible in comparison to Red in color rendition. It is not a true cinema camera. The internal clock works in a different way (read - motion blur, motion capturing, frame rates), the color science aimed at one WB, skintones etc. With their marketing of the last 10 years, i bet they will cripple the camera in a lot of ways. But comparing a Red to a c200 is an unfair comparison - one made by professionals to meet the industry needs, second made by a mass market company for anyone there is.
3. I'd rent both of cameras several times first, then made a decision. Buying a camera is an investment first, so you always want to know what you're buying and the downsides of it. Don't be hurry.

 

[Pierre Le Blanc]

@alex at this point in time I think red tech is not as ahead as is used to be now with the japanese manufacturers entering the RAW market. I had tried red cameras before and comparing it againts other high end 10bits (or more) cameras in the market (not dslr ) I can tell you with confidence that all those arguments about motion capture, motion blur, etc are just myths. In the last few years lots of award winning films had been shoot wth the canon c300 cameras and that's mayeb a testament that right now these cameras are so close to each other in terms of image quality.

 

[Nick Morrison]

@alex at this point in time I think red tech is not as ahead as is used to be now with the japanese manufacturers entering the RAW market. I had tried red cameras before and comparing it againts other high end 10bits (or more) cameras in the market (not dslr ) I can tell you with confidence that all those arguments about motion capture, motion blur, etc are just myths. In the last few years lots of award winning films had been shoot wth the canon c300 cameras and that's mayeb a testament that right now these cameras are so close to each other in terms of image quality.

The C300 is NOT close to a RED in image quality, TRUST ME. I've worked with footage from both many times. Once you start to push and pull the footage, the differences are major.

 

[Alex Lubensky]

There is absolutely no point of arguing that RED is far better than any Canon C-Series - the market has already done that. Obviously, if you don't see the difference, don't buy it. It's just not up to your needs.

 

[Andrey Blanco]

I have been owning Red cameras for the last 5 Years or So. Recently I did a side by side of my Epic Dragon Against C300MKII RAW I can tell you the difference it was minimal. Red is ahead but for so little. I'm looking forward in testing a C200 and check what this Canon Cine light RAW is all about.

 

[Alex Lubensky]

C300 mkII RAW vs c200 RAW As we can see on the 300% crops - on the C300 the detail is just not there. The noise is pretty much ugly as on any C-line Canon (color blocks or patches, call it whatever you want). C200 - oversharpened in default settings, looks as any modern Sony camera. It's good they are at last in the raw game, but still - mostly for TV/DOC/EVENT work. Would never use it on a commercial, music video or narrative.

BTW - C300 MKII with an Odyssey on board is like running crutches - uncomfortable as hell.

Noise patches (red on glasses) on C200 RAW footage graded in Resolve 14:

Original image from c200 RAW:



RAW footage originals to download

 

[Eaglo Park]

any red brain > any canon.

what would be interested is if somebody got the magiclanterning on a red, any red. im pretty sure "unlocking" some features on any old red would make the oldest red seem more appealing than a new canon for sure. the thing is that red is obviously ahead of any canon and every competitor because even if you compare an old red to a new canon for instance, the red is still better and im pretty sure those old reds have the features there they're just locked it.

 

[Bob Gundu]

Redcode. End of story.

 

[Pierre Le Blanc]

Talking about bias people LOL

Maybe was bad idea asking the question here in the first place...

Anyway I had seem ISO 6400 cleaner in the c300 than RED ISO 800 but I guess you don't want to belive that.

BTW I just checked you vimeo page. WOW, Did you used RED cameras on those proejects? Because that will convince me that red Cameras are not that great and what really matter is what is behind the viewfinder...

C300 mkII RAW vs c200 RAW As we can see on the 300% crops - on the C300 the detail is just not there. The noise is pretty much ugly as on any C-line Canon (color blocks or patches, call it whatever you want). C200 - oversharpened in default settings, looks as any modern Sony camera. It's good they are at last in the raw game, but still - mostly for TV/DOC/EVENT work. Would never use it on a commercial, music video or narrative.

BTW - C300 MKII with an Odyssey on board is like running crutches - uncomfortable as hell.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

any red brain > any canon.

what would be interested is if somebody got the magiclanterning on a red, any red. im pretty sure "unlocking" some features on any old red would make the oldest red seem more appealing than a new canon for sure. the thing is that red is obviously ahead of any canon and every competitor because even if you compare an old red to a new canon for instance, the red is still better and im pretty sure those old reds have the features there they're just locked it.

Graeme Nattress and RED have been pretty much "magic lanterning" RED since it's inception. That's what all the upgrades to the color science have been over the years - improving everything ever shot on RED going all the way back to stuff shot in 2008. There is no one on earth that is going to get more out of a RED camera than the team at RED. AS for making a RED ONE do what a new Weapon can do- the computing horsepower (not to mention the sensor and the ASICs) are just not there.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

The C300 is NOT close to a RED in image quality, TRUST ME. I've worked with footage from both many times. Once you start to push and pull the footage, the differences are major.

There are a lot of people on this forum that can speak knowledgeably to this issue and Nick is surely one of them. Anyone, including OP, who wants a Canon instead of RED should go out immediately and buy it. Just don't troll this forum with silly suggestions that RED will have to lower their prices in order to be competitive because Canon is just as as good.

 

[Shawn P]

Is it just me. Or Is Pierre just trolling?
No matter what camera you pick, before the specs, raw capabilities and or max frame rates. It's what story or message you are trying to communicate. Camera for the job. Being a DP myself, my go to is Red... but thats my preference.

 

[Pierre Le Blanc]

I'm sorry Sir, but Unfortunally there is not other place to ask this kind of questions other that this forum. I would love to have a RED secction at dvxuser and priobably get a more balanced responce. My apologyes if I offended you camera decision and I wish you all the best.
But at the end I feel empty handed with out receiven a real clue about price change but mostly a bucn of folks trying to protect the equity in their investment and not showing any real fact about why is the justfication of RED been 100% more expensive. and been only 5-15% beter on image quality but far behind in other areas like: Weight, Lack of ND's, Battery Consumtion, etc

There are a lot of people on this forum that can speak knowledgeably to this issue and Nick is surely one of them. Anyone, including OP, who wants a Canon instead of RED should go out immediately and buy it. Just don't troll this forum with silly suggestions that RED will have to lower their prices in order to be competitive because Canon is just as as good.