RED Post Tool - EDL/Cutlist

[Cüneyt Kaya]

question:

i dont know but is tc management problematic with cs4?

 

[CJ Roy]

Hi CJ, thanks for your responses and I feel your pain on clients demanding all sorts of strange workflows and expecting them to work flawlessly. I've had the G5 thing crop up a few times too.... :ciappa:

Well that's sort of the thing. Avid & FCP workflows aren't strange, they're the norm. An Adobe workflow would be "strange".

I have to also say, too many people are dismissing Adobe CS4 out of hand without seeing it for themselves.

And that's what's sad to me, the resistance to use tools that are every bit as good as anything else out there, just because they're not the "standard". Look at how little it took RED to overcome that barrier, so why are professionals so negative towards trying new tools?

Why do people prefer certain OS's? It's what works for them. NLE's are similar. Once you know a tool well, it can become an extension of you and you can focus purely on the creative aspects of that project.

I think you'd have an easier time convincing a Mac user to switch to Windows, than you would an Avid/FCP Editor/Director to Premiere.

 

[Casey Green]

If I recall, at the Final Cut SuperMeet at NAB this year, Adobe's presentation was entitled "Share the love: FCP and CS4 Production Premium". In the demo, Adobe showed how easy it was to export from FCS into Premiere and back.

Maybe in these established Hollywood post houses, Premiere can make inroads through this method, rather than having to adjust an already established workflow.

If Adobe keeps making advances this quickly, they might actually start to penetrate this market. But I have a feeling FCS3 may also offer some of the same conveniences currently found only in PP and Vegas Pro 9.

Just some food for thought.

 

[CJ Roy]

Maybe in these established hollywood post houses, Premiere can made inroads through this method, rather than having to adjust an already established workflow.

Absolutely. I think that for it to become more standard, they're going to have to innovate. Right now it just seems like they're playing catch-up, with a few gains... but none that last long.

 

[Joe G.]

Wow. Page one of this thread alone shows that there is unnecessary COMPLEXITY involved here. I think the call for a simpler post solution from the manufacturer is quite valid. We are buying not just a camera, but a file format. Image acquisition from end to end that is new and changing all the time. It's in our interest to make sure it is opened up as much as possible.

It certainly shouldn't be treated like 'heresy; from the fanboy squad. I'm sick of the endless gushing and fawning over every announcement. I didn't know the purpose of the forum was strictly cheerleading.

Personally, it looks like Adobe is the way to go. So what good is Redcine at all? What purpose? If they're going to do it, do it right, or else no one will use it.

 

[M Most]

I have to agree with Mark Pederson on this one. EDL's are a completely ancient and woefully ill equipped method of translating data. But Luki is right in that we really need an industry wide movement to support an open and modern standard. I just rented 'Milk' last night so I feel confident in the peoples (us) ability to drive this movement forward. The process of parsing an EDL is complex because no one follows the standard. It shouldn't be as difficult as it is!

Good luck with that. The Advanced Authoring Format (AAF), used by Avid and a number of other vendors (Filmlight, Digital Vision, and Autodesk all support it) has been around since 2001 as an open standard. If anything, it's really Apple that's been the fly in the ointment in terms of industry wide acceptance of advanced metadata for editing, as they decided their own XML tags and nomenclature were going to be their "standard." Apple has a very bad habit of inventing their own formats and announcing that they're now "industry standards," and their users (i.e., an awful lot of people here), feeling Apple can do no wrong, seem to think that it's everyone else's problem. The fact is that other major players have had interchange using things like OMF and AAF for quite some time now. It's Apple who never seems to go along with any of it.

 

[Paul Leeming]

Absolutely. I think that for it to become more standard, they're going to have to innovate. Right now it just seems like they're playing catch-up, with a few gains... but none that last long.

CJ, I don't want to turn this into an Adobe vs Final Cut thread, but tell me in what ways the FCS2 package is better than the Adobe CS4 Production Premium package.

Here's a quick primer for you for CS4 on some of the features you can compare and contrast:

http://www.adobe.com/products/creativesuite/production/

Bear in mind, CS4 is available for OSX as well, so you don't have to give up your Mac to use it.... I can't say the same in reverse for FCS2.

This is a good discussion as I think it cuts to the heart of the real request being asked, which is full support for the R3D file format with no limitations, in everybody's favourite editing system. That way no additional programs would be needed in the first place.

I think we're almost there now and just wanted to point out that Adobe CS4 is the best cross-platform implementation of this today. It's just a bonus that besides top notch Red support it also happens to offer After Effects, Photoshop and a host of other industry standard programs within the one price, with first class assets management between them all and no transcoding needed anywhere in the chain until outputting in your final formats, be they Blu-ray Disc, 4K DPX sequences, Flash video for web delivery or any number of other formats.

Cheers,

Paul

 

[M Most]

CJ, I don't want to turn this into an Adobe vs Final Cut thread....

But you are.

No amount of personal opinion or quasi advertising is going to convince a happy Final Cut user to change, as is also the case with happy Avid users, happy PC users, happy Mac users, and happy Adobe users. Multiple platforms and programs all survive because they all have different features that appeal to different users. It's always useful to know what's available in each, but in the end, people are going to use what they're used to and what they like.

 

[CJ Roy]

I'm a huge After Effects fan. I've got CS4, though I haven't used Premiere much.

Maybe I need to dig into it more, but I just haven't seen anything revolutionary come out of Adobe recently. Or maybe it's their annoying updating window that turns me off... who knows.

But I'll tell you this. Every director, DP, Production Manager, AC, creative director on set that use a macbook, all have FCP. That's incredibly important to note. I can do a color pass, using power windows in COLOR, export a project file, save looks for them and export reference stills that all can be utilized later. This is probably the most impressive demo I've done for clients, for the Red.

Again, I have to deliver for what my clients are using. Telling them to all buy CS4 has the same of affect of me telling them to buy a Scratch.

 

[Michael McLaughlin]

AAF = herding cats

AAF = herding cats

Funny how MMOST got to it before me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Authoring_Format

I remember attending one of the first major get togethers for AAF over at the Autry Musuem here in Los Angeles. It seemed like it was chock full of salesmen, engineers and company reps... and it felt like a group of cats trying to be herded. : - )

But I jest somewhat...

I think of those initial meetings and talks; some good things came about, but to think we are still talking about EDLs (when at the same AAF meeting people were predicting the imminent demise of the EDL that year); well... its sort of deppressing; and really does suck. I just remember all the energy and promises being made there and at subsequent meetings. Crazy that 8 years later and we are still stuck on this.

And I agree Apple does seem like the hardest cat to herd in the right direction... at times like a feral cat that chewed on a crack rock... meow.

Crazy man

 

[Casey Green]

No amount of personal opinion or quasi advertising is going to convince a happy Final Cut user to change, as is also the case with happy Avid users, happy PC users, happy Mac users, and happy Adobe users. Multiple platforms and programs all survive because they all have different features that appeal to different users. It's always useful to know what's available in each, but in the end, people are going to use what they're used to and what they like.

Gotta agree with this, and I believe it is at the core of many of the debates going on here.

...But I'll tell you this. Every director, DP, Production Manager, AC, creative director on set that use a macbook, all have FCP. That's incredibly important to note. I can do a color pass, using power windows in COLOR, export a project file, save looks for them and export reference stills that all can be utilized later. This is probably the most impressive demo I've done for clients, for the Red.

Again, I have to deliver for what my clients are using. Telling them to all buy CS4 has the same of affect of me telling them to buy a Scratch.

Here, CJ seems to actually be underscoring that point.

It can be all too easy for anyone presenting a certain side of this argument to fail to grasp what is happening in someone else's production environment and also to step outside of their own personal areas of experience and workflows and be able to imagine being in the other guy's shoes. (This goes for end users, the manufacturer, as well as third party developers)

Someone who runs their own small production company may be able to change their main post apps on a dime when something comes along that works better. It may be the right solution for them, their budget, their clients, and their partners. Others, such as long running FX and post houses may not be able to make changes to their established workflows nearly as fast. Perhaps their entire building is built around a core of Avid technology and all of their clients demand certain formats.

What is so challenging about a revolutionary and democratizing product, such as the RED ONE, is that this point must constantly be factored into the equation as the program evolves. And the people that post ideas, feature requests, complaints, etc. on these forums must keep this in mind as much as possible.

It doesn't mean that each person can not present their argument and reasons behind their individual requests, but I think a lot of assumptions happen because we have such a diverse community. This is actually a great thing, but we all must be careful. I've definitely made this mistake from time to time as well.

Just thought I'd put that out there.

 

[Dominic Cochran]

No amount of personal opinion or quasi advertising is going to convince a happy Final Cut user to change, as is also the case with happy Avid users, happy PC users, happy Mac users, and happy Adobe users.

You're right. It didn't take personal opinion OR quasi advertising OR 13 years of happily using Avid on the Mac platform to realize that Adobe just owned both Avid and Apple(for now). I'm just a DP and it took about an hour to be comfortable in Premiere(a program that until now I've all but straight up laughed at).

I also thought I'd be shooting film for a lot longer. Things change.

 

[John Tissavary]

Yup, as long as Apple is in the mix my confidence in an industry-wide standard being adopted is near zero based on their track record.

:beatdeadhorse5:

Red post is simple, not a nightmare. If a company or individual is not willing to invest in or use tools that are proven to work, it can be like driving nails with an eraser: wrong tool, giant sucking sound.

We often conform & transcode others' R3D footage to DPX to forward to facilities like New Hat, Company3, Technicolor, etc.... and also do top quality grades right here... it's easy every time.





cheers,

JT

 

[Michael McLaughlin]

damn

damn

was this funny... a little, maybe

And I agree Apple does seem like the hardest cat to herd in the right direction... at times like a feral cat that chewed on a crack rock... meow.

my black humor getting the best of me, or not.


time to end the thread ; - )

 

[A. Bastaki]

i dont like how apple's been lately.
they've been making lots of wrong turns.

the iphone 3gs. the macbooks. fcs...

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

I am really glad Ian is coming up with a nice solution.. Hopefully it will work seamlessly and there wont be any weird bugs.. I just wish there was a single application that I could hit 2 buttons.. send to redcine.. and send to final cut.. thats it.. simple!
Ill pay for that version of redcine

I think its ridiculous that color grading software and conform tools are in the 10s of thousands - 60s of thousands. Bogus shenanigans

make a low cost solution and have 6000 + redusers buy it.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Frankly, just about everything software needs to know about a R3d file is exposed via the SDK.

I was more responding to the OP and the original REDCine release.

A good SDK tends to negate the need for first party solutions. Which is why they're so so very very nice.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

If I read all of the recent announcements correctly, we are heading in the direction many of you are hoping for. In developing a new version of REDCINE with an open architecture for 3rd party coders I see potential for the smart folks out there to harness that and offer affordable plugins that will allow many of the features people are asking for. I think discussing some of the challenges of conforming are worthwhile and get the brain cells working, but at the same time I think it's only fair to RED to let this evolve. They have yet to release the software and we have yet to see what might be possible in terms of third party integration. Think about how much has changed in the past 6 months. More R3D support across the board. Adobe with native support. Things are happening and as the SDK evolves and more is opened up to these third parties we will see new tools emerge that will continue to make RED workflow more streamlined and accessible to the masses.

Think of the great contributions from the Redusers like Ian, Hans, the Rubber Monkey guys, etc. I suspect more will step up to the plate in addition to the work that is going on behind the scenes with the big players. There is a tremendous amount of energy going towards integrating RED codec throughout the industry. It does take some time, and it takes everyone getting on the same page.

One thing to help keep things in perspective when analyzing conform tools is to remember how varied timelines can be based on complexity of edit, editing styles, effects, transitions, media management, etc. I believe there are ways of improving how applications communicate with each other and translate metadata but there are many factors at play and they don't all have to do with the actual mechanics of making it happen.

I guess what I'm getting at is let's see what comes of this when the software is actually out and people have a chance to tap into it. If it falls short of expectations then, well I think it's fair to offer criticism.

In the meantime, there are many solutions for getting RED jobs done. In fact, I was with a major company today that couldn't believe how simple the workflow we came up with for their facility is. I simply analyzed their needs in terms of speed, quality, and deliverables and we settled on something that is remarkably straightforward and will get the job done at the level they need it to be.

But I admit, there is certainly potential to improve workflow and I believe RED is doing all they can with the resources they have to help push that along. I'm looking forward to the new tools they are working on.

 

[A. Bastaki]

man, adobe... everytime i just click on that Pr button.. i get this feeling that im a part of this elite club. I feel so .. so.. relaaaxed. untense.. i feel like i'm on cloud 9 with angelic feathers.

i am so laughing at all y'all who aint using adobe.

hahahaha.

i am so happy on my adobe cloud..

everytime i just click on that button... i look down at that dusty box of final cut studio 2.0 in the far end corner of gotham city (aka my desk)... i see all y'all who ain't in the mile high club of adobe.. and just wave from above... sayin'

How's the weather down there.. (with a biiiig smiiile)...

and go back to my renderless online workflow. unlike some of the fake so called (unlimited rt shit i had to deal with before).

no more jumping through hoops around redcine and what not... no more monkey business (catch my draft? haha)

hahahaha.

biiig.. biiiig smile. im high on adobe baby. real high.

 

[Charles Angus]

I think its ridiculous that color grading software and conform tools are in the 10s of thousands - 60s of thousands. Bogus shenanigans

make a low cost solution and have 6000 + redusers buy it.

You make a low cost solution, and show us all how it's done.

Lucas's post on the difficulties of EDL implementation is right on the money.

There is a reason that high-end conform/colour tools are expensive: they're difficult to develop and the market is small.