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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED, please silence editing rumors

Let me state up front that Kevin Stanley, the master of workflow , has been nothing but helpful. We talked several time at NAB and through e-mail and on the phone since I received my Red. He has guided me in the right direction.
With that said I must agree with the paintthetownred. It would nice to have some basic help with the workflow similar to what Mike Burton did with the Redcine software.

I'm an old dog and I don't learn new tricks as fast as I use to. Started with linear editing 25 years ago and have learned to love 5 NLE's before switching to the dark side and FCP, which I am also learning to love(thanks to Lynda.com). I think what paintthetownred and Finner point out is that workflow is still confusing for many. I know it is for me. There are so many variables. Red,Redcine,Red Alert, Redrushes, FCP. An incorrect setting anywhere can cause problems. And that's just on the Mac side. Things will get even more interesting when the SDK is released.

Now that B16 is becoming stable and it is understood that having the right versions of Redcine is a must. Perhaps its a good time to lay out basics on how to go from Red to whatever format you like. Covering variables and pitfalls along the way.

I know that these instructions are probably somewhere on Reduser but searching has never worked very well for me.

We know Red has given us a great camera for a fraction of it value, but a little more help on the workflow side would benefit new users and Red. Kevin wouldn't have repeat himself a thousand times. Marketing would be a little easier. The world would be filled with joy.

I love this camera and will learn to be comfortable with it in time. Keep in mind that I"m aging quickly and my time may be limited so anything you can do for us digital cinema challenged owners would be appreciated.
 
I here a lot of chatter about this and it seems like there is a much better workflow for FCP. We, like many have an AVID. An Avid Adrenaline HD system to be exact. Why is there less emphasis on the AVID? Is it AVID or RED? I can't seem to figure out who's in bed with who.
 
RED has had development agreements with Apple. However I believe those are no longer exclusive. Avid and RED are certainly working together on getting it working better.

The workflow with FCP isn't necessarily as straight-forward as it always appears anyway.
 
My take

My take

I love this camera and do believe things will get much easier soon, but to be fair to those of my clients who have passed, because of the post issues, I understand where they are coming from.

I can only speak for the kind of work our clients do, smallish to mid budget commercials that usually shoot 35, and to lesser degree HD. But the one thing they are almost always under is a tight deadline for air. Often the film will go to the lab for overnight processing and the next day is the telecine session. They dump to HDCAM and post begins, the spot may even begin to air within the week in extreme circumstances.

IMHO, processing all the raw footage, as one might do in a telecine session, is something Redcine can't compete with under a deadline, as doing a full debayer can take an extremely long time to render out. (I've also noticed when my clients shoot with the Red they tend to do many more takes than they would with film, thus making the render situation more problematic.)

So this leads to my suggesting to my clients the only practical workflow under a deadline (or perhaps ever) is an offline/online one. This involves them learning and working with at least one and potentially three different software programs. When they compare this to the other workflows they are used to, it seems like a hassle to them. (While a Scratch system would resolve these issues, unfortunately there are none about that I know of.)

These aren't lazy or stupid people, they're just making business/time/money decisions. And for some of my clients all of those factors haven't come together for them yet. So for me, I don't believe there are any rumors to quell. This camera has a LOT going for it, and to not tout that to my clients would be nuts, as would not not admitting it's current potentail weaknesses compared to other workflows.

But I'm sure all of this will get better shortly and all my clients will join the fold.
 
In our neck of the woods we'd almost always have an offline/online process anyway. Where editing is done at SD from a DV or Digi telecine. The finished edit is then conformed in a grading or online at HD or SD, graded and graphics added.

Personally I'm still a big fan of the offline/online process anyway.
 
>>But then you're probably the kind of producer who likes to stand over the editor's shoulder while munching fries and micromanaging every cut. You'd need to learn to stop that.<<

Yup, we've all had that happen. Gotta charge extra to clients like that, right?
 
JonathanLB said:
I don't know what to think from the comments here, some people have no problems and say it's easy, others are bitching about how hard it is.
Click to expand...

Easy (or hard) is in the eye of the beholder.

For some people, just getting out of bed in the morning is a challenge.
 
If you are looking for a thorough set of videos explaining the entire workflow through post, take a look at the training on FXphd.com.

This term has just started, so you can join the classes now. They have a RED workflow class (RED101), a RED "on set" class (DOP301), and a Scratch and Grading RED class (SCR201) this term. For $330 USD, you can take all three 10 week classes. Top notch, professional training, definitely worth the price tag.

I'm in no way affiliated with FXphd, other than being a student of these classes now... but if you want to help a girl out, :innocent: please use my member name (wanderlust) as your referral if you sign up for the classes, and I'll get a free class. Every penny I save is going towards #3145.
 
First, I always supervise my work, yes, and not as a producer only, as a director. That's not always required for every aspect, but I am hands-on and while I trust my editor to make his own decisions, I enjoy being there for the process, even if it's just in the same room, so that I may offer feedback. It's my project. An editor is a paid professional, but his job is to give me what I want, not to make up his own version of what's supposed to happen. The way you get the best work out of everyone is to give them the slack and the freedom to be creative, but let them know what you're looking for, because anything could be edited many ways, not necessarily better or worse, just different. It's my job as the producer / director to know what the client wants, or in some cases what I want, and help steer things in that direction. I'm the one who is going to take the heat if we deliver something that's different from what they had in mind. So far on the work I've done, I really haven't been "the boss" on any of it, I've always had to answer to a client, a band, etc. My job is to make them happy, but maintain my artistic sensibilities and stay within the budget. That requires that I work closely with the editor, because I'm the type of director who believes a project comes together in the editing room.

I'm sure any editor would much rather edit from home, with nobody else there, so they can take breaks when they want, surf the net, post on RED User (hehe), check MySpace, etc. I still encourage my editor to do stuff like that while renders are in progress, whatever, I don't stand over their shoulder the whole time, but the process is going to take a LOT longer if I'm not there to answer feedback at least. There are too many decisions an editor cannot reasonably be expected to make without knowing more about what the client wants, and I'm the intermediary between the client and the production team. Sometimes, I make calls myself based on what I want, but other times I know what the client has in mind based on prior conversations and I need to figure out the best way to communicate that and see what works.

And, no, I don't mean that NO editor deserves more than $250/day, I'm only saying that you can indeed find very talented editors down here for that price. Maybe that's hard for you to believe, but there are plenty of people who really want to find work and have great reels, but there are more people than their are jobs at any given time.

I'm sorry some of you are bitter about the RED not being ideal with Avid right now, but Avid is an old editing system, it's the past, just like 35mm film is the past. I'm not saying you cannot make great projects shooting with 35 and finishing on Avid, obviously that's the way the majority of feature films have been done for a while now, all I'm saying is that isn't the "best way" anymore, it's just another way of doing things that hopefully fades with time as it should. Avid is a has-been system, with poor support and bad features, and there's nothing it can do that FCP can't do, except FCP can do more than Avid now with Final Cut Studio 2's other apps. So can CS3, for that matter. You can't edit with Avid without relying on some other company's apps, but you can edit with CS3 without relying on anything else. Now, with Final Cut, you still are probably going to need to use Photoshop for some things, but it's a complete editing solution. I'm sorry you don't agree, but for anyone to say that they think it's more stable editing on a WINDOWS-based machine, I'm sorry, you are really clueless about computers. I wouldn't trust anything on a Winblows platform. Good for you that you've been able to make it this far using that lousy OS. At least use Linux or something, because to edit pro work on Winblows and then tell ME I don't know what I'm talking about?! LOL, that's priceless.
 
ummm......have you ever used AVID?

I can use both FCP and AVID and they both do the same job well. But when it comes to big end jobs with complex media managemnet then there is only one system to get........you can guess which one.

oh - can you tell me why AVID is now making drives for FCP?

OS bashing is one i will stay away from as i firmly beleive that it all comes down to monkey hanging off the keyboard



..........peace from down under...........
 
Living in past world

Living in past world

Sycophant said:
I have heard producers say "no, we don't want to use RED, we don't want to have to cut with FCP."
Click to expand...

Producers living in past world....

Come to reality.

Its not just tool that matter whether you use FCP / AVID, the people working on that really matters. I am from India and I managed more than 20 feature film projects using Final Cut Pro without any hiccups.

Avid world still believe media management is not better in FCP. But they also need to know with better people, management is pro by using FCP.
 
JonathanLB said:
Avid is a has-been system, with poor support and bad features, and there's nothing it can do that FCP can't do, except FCP can do more than Avid now with Final Cut Studio 2's other apps. So can CS3, for that matter. You can't edit with Avid without relying on some other company's apps, but you can edit with CS3 without relying on anything else.
Click to expand...

Seriously you are making absolutely ridiculous statements. Avid has unmatched media management and collaborative workflow. Avid's toolset is very well crafted for certain tasks. It is not necessarily a finishing system (although it more than capable of finishing, and I personally have finished hundreds of hours of network broadcast TV on Media Composer). FCP has strengths in other areas, but is far from being a perfect solution either.

I'm sorry you don't agree, but for anyone to say that they think it's more stable editing on a WINDOWS-based machine, I'm sorry, you are really clueless about computers. I wouldn't trust anything on a Winblows platform. Good for you that you've been able to make it this far using that lousy OS. At least use Linux or something, because to edit pro work on Winblows and then tell ME I don't know what I'm talking about?! LOL, that's priceless.
Click to expand...

The majority of edit suites I've used have been Avid on Windows, some Avid on Mac, and a few FCP suites. Mac OS is not inherently any more stable that Windows. I suffer serious crashes in FCP at least as often as I do in Avid in Windows, although the FCP ones seems to be more abrupt - the whole thing vanishes with no warning. The majority of professional television and feature editing now will be being conducted on Avid on Windows. Of the Macs, many will be older (PowerPC) Macs running older Avid versions with Meridian hardware (still working hard).

gbalaji said:
Avid world still believe media management is not better in FCP. But they also need to know with better people, management is pro by using FCP.
Click to expand...

It's very clear that FCP has serious issues with media management. A roust offline/online process with FCP is borderline impossible. It is a powerful and capable application, but it is far from the magic bullet. Avid still has a very strong market position and offers features that are unmatched in other applications.
 
Waiting for real software or support.

Waiting for real software or support.

gbalaji said:
Jonathan and rest of the people who start this post,

There is nothing wrong with RED or any Digital Cinema Camera based acquisition. Instead of all the hardware gear you mentioned above, you need a better young dynamic team of editors / compositors to do file based work-flows. People complained NLE in the beginning and now if any editor doesn't work on NLE software are out of business and that will apply for all the technological advancement including file based acquisition.
Click to expand...

Again, editor bashing?

It doesn't require an entire new way of thinking to migrate towards XML translation or file based workflow on the part of the editors. However, NLE tools have been perfected over the last 15-20 years to fully support the editors. My biggest complaint with the RED workflow to date is that all of the available software is still BETA, 3rd party BETA, and mostly unreliable because it is barely supported. With the release of the SDK, this is bound to change, but for now getting simple questions answered when technical problems arise, in a client driven atmosphere, is nearly impossible. This may not affect the independent feature workflow as much, but for the commercial broadcast deadline driven workflow, I have found it to be an issue that needs some addressing.
 
I’ve always believed that if you gave Spielberg, Scorsese, Malice and Dave Mullins 8mm movie cameras ,razor blades and an idea, that they would come up with more compelling content than the vast majority of professionals on the planet. Not because they had cutting edge technology on their side, but because they have creative vision and the passion to get the job done

With all the arguments about which NLE is the best and most creative, the truth is they will all do most of what we need to do quality productions. Yes, they all have their own bells and whistles that help us with speed and creatively, but I doubt any of them will turn us into creative geniuses.

The great thing is that, IMHO, all of the NLE’s discussed here (Avid, CS3, FCP, Vegas etc) will improve dramatically (speed) within the next 12 months. Until then I will just work a little slower in the NLE of my choice. I have waited 25 years for a camera like this. Even now the workflow is no worse than what I have had to deal with in film and linear post

One of the great transitions of this forum is that we no longer dwell on whether the camera will do what it is advertised to do. It will! We only have to wait for the workflow to catch up. Small price.
 
Hey Thor, (Sorry all, a bit of a backstroke for the Olympics!),

In your post #12 in this thread you say you're not a fan of Apple or FCP/FCS2 but you don't mention what you are a fan of. What do you think is better?

I've researched Macs and PCs for over ten years and it's few and far between that a PC has ever beaten a Mac! Prove me wrong! Unless you're counting viruses, spam, meddling by third parties, hideous designs which cause eye strain, instability with a side order of aggravation as you try to figure out who made what and where to find the fix... RED went with Apple first because they're the best. Now eat your broccoli! ;>)

BTW, I love you.
 
Last week we had a visit from an Agency to tour our Red capabilities.

Their comment on arrival was, "We've heard Red makes nice pictures, but you can't really post it." I'm not making this up.

We took them to the studio, shot a table top then walked them right through edit.

They came away convinced that the Red makes pictures much better than just "nice" and that post is easy and straightforward. This week a storyboard arrived from them.

We have another client, one of the largest agencies extant, and we're hearing the same misinformation from them, even though we're already doing jobs for them with Red footage.

Obviously, some of this is coming from sales staff of other cameras, but it's also coming from an unlikely place; some post houses. I guess they're too incompetent to learn to handle Red footage.

Sad, really, considering that editing Red footage is about as difficult as making a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. No, it's far less difficult and not nearly as messy.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo
 
Leo, in the simplest way, what is the workflow you show them and with what hardware?
Thanks for your help
Rob Gardner
 
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