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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Red Package in LA/NY/DC $400/day WITH AC/DIT

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mikeflight

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Red package $400/day with AC/DIT! Based on both coasts, in LA and DC, willing to travel anywhere. Great, friendly, knowledgeable staff!

For more info email: mike@directormikeflight.com

RED Package:
RED Body
RED 18-50mm zoom lens
O'Connor Tripod with Standard Legs
Hi-Hat
RED LCD, cable
Red arm
6 RED CF Cards
640 GB Red Drive
RED Basic Production Pack with shoulder mount, handles for handheld
Red Rock Pro 2 stage Mattebox
Red Rock Follow Focus
ND .3, .6, .9 Filters
Graduated .6 ND filter
Polarizer Filter
4 RED Brick Batteries/Charger/AC Adapter
10 inch director's monitor
Macbook Pro Laptop
CF card reader
 
Please stop

Please stop

In this economy I understand that getting $400/day for a basic Red package might be a financial reality for some people. That said, an AC or DIT who has even an inkling what they are doing should be getting at least $200/day which would be $600/day combined. Anything less and not only are you going down the tubes but you are going to take some of the rest of us with you. Moreover, producers looking for a "deal" will hire the low ballers and all too often have a bad experience that reflects on the reputation of the camera in a way that hurts all of us.

Threads like this are a real pain for those of us who treat this work as a profession and consider paying our bills important. Sorry to flame you, and I am not endorsing price fixing, but I would hate for the most active off topic thread on RedUser to be about the pros and cons of declaring bankruptcy.

Cheers - #19
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
...an AC or DIT who has even an inkling what they are doing should be getting at least $200/day which would be $600/day combined. Anything less and not only are you going down the tubes but you are going to take some of the rest of us with you.
Click to expand...

Amen. You're undercharging and it will only come around to bite you (And all of us) in the ass later.
 
is 400 a day the owner/operator cost or just the rental?

ive seen ex3's rented out in DC for 375 without anything more than 2 bats, 2 cards and a lens...your really cutting yourself short man

also, how could it possibly be worth it to travel for 400 a day?
 
If your hurting that much you may want to sell your package and get top dollar for it, because as soon as the epic comes out your rate may have to go down to $25 a day.

Im just sayin and the value of your REDONE wont be what it is today.
 
Whether or not its a "free world" anymore is outside the scope of this forum :emote_headwall:

In any case, I stated my opinion that low priced Red camera packages with DIT/AC hurt the larger community of owner/operators. I have been in this business for many years and have pretty decent math skills. I stand by my assessment that the minimum amount someone needs to charge in order to make payments, maintain their gear and operate at a professional level is far greater than $400/day can support - particularly in the high cost larger cities noted.

My core beef is that if there are too many of these low priced offers out there then those of us who wish to have a sustainable business model based to some degree on the rental ROI of a RedOne camera will have a much rougher time. So I bitched, and I can say with reasonable certainty that many of the people who read my post were nodding their heads. Just sayin'

Cheers - #19
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
Whether or not its a "free world" anymore is outside the scope of this forum :emote_headwall:

In any case, I stated my opinion that low priced Red camera packages with DIT/AC hurt the larger community of owner/operators. I have been in this business for many years and have pretty decent math skills. I stand by my assessment that the minimum amount someone needs to charge in order to make payments, maintain their gear and operate at a professional level is far greater than $400/day can support - particularly in the high cost larger cities noted.

My core beef is that if there are too many of these low priced offers out there then those of us who wish to have a sustainable business model based to some degree on the rental ROI of a RedOne camera will have a much rougher time. So I bitched, and I can say with reasonable certainty that many of the people who read my post were nodding their heads. Just sayin'

Cheers - #19
Click to expand...

You are absolutely right with your math skills.

Except this gentleman does not work for you or the 'Red community'. He put this add out to attract business for himself.

If other Red owners (including myself) do not want - or financially cannot afford to work for $400 a day, we either simply have to be so good at what we do that people are willing to pay more or get a different job.

That is how a free market works and bitching about it is not constructive and does not change a thing.
 
axel ebermann said:
(snip) That is how a free market works and bitching about it is not constructive and does not change a thing.
Click to expand...

In a vacuum you are correct.

FWIW I never advocated that some action be taken to stop him. In fact, the title of my original post was "Please Stop" - I even said please.

I do believe it is in mikeflight's best interest and that of the Red Community to maintain sustainable rates. He may disagree, so might you. I wouldn't define my comments as bitching, simply politely suggesting that such low pricing can do collateral damage.

Yes, I realize there is some irony in that the RedOne broke the quality to price model the industry was used to. Of course that particular point has been overblown by many as the total cost of putting together a proper camera package (not to mention the typical cost of a professional production) makes the "Red is $17,500 and F23 is $250,000" comparison rather misleading, especially if the gear is a rental item for production.

Cheers - #19
 
I'm actually thankful there is such a wide spectrum of pricing. I've gotten plenty of work redirected my way after a producer chose a cheaper route that (was too good to be true) only to find out that they hired someone with very little camera knowledge; less than adequite camera skills and not enough kit to backup the high failure items---drives, batts, LCD, EVF, cables etc....Time after time i've been called up to either complete a shoot or do the next.

I'm not suggesting this poster is under-skilled. But many are and sometimes things are too good to be true. You often get what you pay for in just about any business. But remember, there's also a lot of INDIE folks out there looking for help like this. So......
 
There will always be somebody cheaper. Always. Get over it.
 
Rob Gardner said:
There will always be somebody cheaper. Always. Get over it.
Click to expand...

So true. I do still maintain that it will come back around to bite him in the ass. When you start with a client at a low rate, its hard to raise it later as they've already become accustomed to getting service at that level. Then when others try to go free market and undercut you, which they will and good for them, they end up going so low that it can't be sustained for long. In the long run, producers lose out and so do we.

If Mike is posting on here I would take it to assume that he wants feedback from technicians, not producers as we make up the vast majority of this portal. I could be wrong but without a chime in from the OP we'll never know.

Why so cheap Mike? Do you feel your work isn't worth more? I think it's worth a great deal more, even if its just for rentals and we've never met none the less worked together.
 
Michael Romano said:
When you start with a client at a low rate, its hard to raise it later as they've already become accustomed to getting service at that level.
Click to expand...

One way to handle this problem is to always quote your normal rate, and then discount it for a particular, unique, one-time reason. For example the OP could have said: "RED+DIT $1200/day. Job fell through on 9/14-16, package available for $1200 total for all three days."

A bargain-hunting producer who saw that might take advantage of it, but wouldn't expect to get any additional days for $400/day. There are many variations on this theme.

Part of your job as a vendor is to train your customers (aka producers) what is required to do a shoot, along with the cost, and why it's required. They can't see everything that goes into a shoot, but that doesn't mean they won't pay for it, it just means you'll need to explain it to them first.

My opinion is that you should never, ever drop your quoted price for providing the "same" product/service (except as described above). If the producer truly needs to spend less, your job is NOT to just give them a discount, it's to discuss tradeoffs that can be made that will result in a lower cost (but incur more risk, less quality, etc.). Sometimes that means giving them the name of someone else who normally quotes jobs for less. Never discount your normal price without changing the service/product.

Full disclosure: I both produce and direct films.
 
You can almost never win a race for the bottom. It's easy to set a low rate, much, much harder to raise it once you are established as the low-rent guy to go to.
Although I must say (also speaking as a producer) is that producer's themselves are under their own budget constraints. Most budgets in most markets are not going up.
 
People get what they pay for and you need to get what your worth.

People get what they pay for and you need to get what your worth.

Rob Gardner said:
You can almost never win a race for the bottom. It's easy to set a low rate, much, much harder to raise it once you are established as the low-rent guy to go to.
Although I must say (also speaking as a producer) is that producer's themselves are under their own budget constraints. Most budgets in most markets are not going up.
Click to expand...


I have discovered this time and time again. in Vancouver someone has blatantly posted that they come as a DIT with a fully kitted red for $300.00 / Day and that in CDN (285 USD)

WOW! I must say, it's all I really can say. Producers who want to pay rock bottom prices get rock bottom results. And when you pay peanuts you get monkeys.

Yes true, this is a free market economy even up in the North, but like what was said. These services and prices are normally coming from new users/ owners and end up giving the Camera and workflow a bad rep, which is a fair statement.

I can see this is a a discussion that will never really be solved, my only issue is with wait until there are 25,000 scarlet's floating around, lets see how rock bottom the prices get then.

Sell value and your services and companies will come back to you time and time again. If your selling the low end be prepared to put your camera in chaotic situations with most of the crew volunteering and fresh out of film school.

Food for thought
 
I'd say the biggest problem this guy is gonna face is that he'll have a hard time paying the IRS and that he's gonna be really really tired.
He's probably expecting to work minimum 20 days a month, and at $400/cash, no taxes that's $8000/month. Not a bad cash haul - especially if he can do it for a year straight ($96,000)If he can handle being abused for 240 14-17 hour days, and still evade taxes, and maintain his own sanity then more power to him.
 
Thanks Blair - and Mike, raise the rates man - you can't pay for the hardware, insurance, time, taxes and related tools for even double that. Standard rates are 3x that.

For those that say stop complaining, free market, get over it - you miss the point. I'm not bitching, nor ignoring the value chain in a market. I'm using THIS forum - its a forum - to tell my fellow man that he is making a poor business decision in the market, and secondarily, using the social mechanism of the forum to respectfully point out publicly that his peers think quite poorly of selling products and services well below cost.
 
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