RED ONE Yes or No?

[Eric J Kosinski]

I'm finally at the stages of my career where it looks though an affordable Digital Cinema Camera is in site. These being Sony F3 S Log, Red One, Epic S. I'd be using this for mostly commercial use, but want to prepare for future film projects, however the goal will be to sell myself as a DOP with Gear and shoot independent films as much as possible. I'm a film grad and have a lot of knowledge with film cameras over the years (mostly 16mm on personal projects) but since the camera is a computer now and NOT simply a lightbox, I am strongly considering a Sony F3, (I know, I know), RED ONE, or EPIC S if it ever arrives to start off my career as a DOP. My main reason for maybe getting an F3 over the others besides cost is explained below but mainly SONY reliability.

I've recently seen several movies in theaters that have been shot on Genesis (older technology), Sony F35, etc all with only 1920 x 1080 resolution while I've seen several (over the past years) shot on RED that look like shit?, almost 7D like with that yellowish skintones, etc (please, before the neg comments, I understand the user has to understand the camera, etc, etc), but even seeing CHE', and some others I felt it didn't look any better than other stuff shot on the Genesis, F35, etc.

1. Will the purchase of RED ONE make sense, or is EPIC S a better choice if buying RED at the moment?
2. If buying a RED ONE, can some owner/operators explain if this has helped their career, book jobs, DP work, etc, etc or if a Sony would have done too?
3. Is there really a clear difference in overall quality for commercial/cinema, etc?
4. Are there any problems that exist with the RED ONE, such as overheating, dying on set that are common????
5. Finally is there a ease of use that I'm missing as it looks overcomplicated with the forum posts having so many things to talk about problems, etc.

I know from experience reliability is important on set. Time is money and if my camera goes down I would/could be at a loss without a backup. I'm mainly concerned with RED not being at the point for service yet, no resellers, limited people to speak to about it, aftermarket dealers, etc? Any help will do here.

 

[Steve Das]

I've recently seen several movies in theaters that have been shot on Genesis (older technology), Sony F35, etc all with only 1920 x 1080 resolution while I've seen several (over the past years) shot on RED that look like shit?, almost 7D like with that yellowish skintones, etc (please, before the neg comments, I understand the user has to understand the camera, etc, etc), but even seeing CHE', and some others I felt it didn't look any better than other stuff shot on the Genesis, F35, etc.

You have to be very careful in comparing the looks of movies. There are many viewing variables. And since you are not comparing them side by
side..A/B in real time...well it actually says more about your visual and emotional state at the time of viewing and your memory.
But really the mysterium sensor in Epic looks quite abit better than the same senor in Red one...the image has a very dimensional quality to it.

 

[Eric J Kosinski]

You have to be very careful in comparing the looks of movies. There are many viewing variables. And since you are not comparing them side by
side..A/B in real time...well it actually says more about your visual and emotional state at the time of viewing and your memory.
But really the mysterium sensor in Epic looks quite abit better than the same senor in Red one...the image has a very dimensional quality to it.

Totally understood, films should be compared side by side, BUT there has been a few times looking at professional (in cinema) films shot on RED ONE that didn't look good, and some "Pirates" that looked amazing. What I'm wondering is if it really matters. Alexa footage in theaters is amazing. No doubt Red footage again "Pirates" looks great, but is it going to look great out of the box, or would shooting with Alexa, Sony F3 S Log produce the same images with a more user friendly approach ?? I understand mostly RED Users here, but I am just looking for honest opinions of if the camera is worth it, EPIC or RED ONE? The hype has be pulled in already. I already have accessories ready to purchase even before a camera, but I here so many things like overheating, etc, etc. I need to know about these things from real RED ONE and EPIC users . Please HELP?

 

[Timothy Eaton]

Hi Eric,

Do you understand the concept of RAW images at 4.5 K? This is lightning in a bottle that no other camera has at this time. There is no other camera with the Red One's combination of resolution and versatility in post (except for Epic). It's like shooting film - great latitude (especially with MX), and amazing options in post, assuming it was exposed properly - without the cost and hassle of film. And the price is right. What's not to like!

My MX has been extremely reliable. I would suggest you consider the SSD adapter. Workflow is very similar to film workflow, but much easier, because it's digital. Search for Mark Toia's tips on how simple it can be.

Tim Eaton

 

[Eric J Kosinski]

Maybe I should rephrase a bit with more simplicity: If Alexa, Sony F35, etc footage looks great in theaters, is it really that much different and necessary to shoot in 4K ? In several forums people claim RED is really interpolating pixels , etc.

I am looking for some advice on the purchase of these cameras, flaws and shortcomings too, but more importantly if 4K really makes a difference on the big screen and IF SO, why does ALEXA footage look better (just as sharp, better dynamic range) in some recent films I've seen? For instance, My Poppers Penguins (ALEXA) had such a great feel to it (kids made me see it, lol) and looked good on resolution while My Idiot Brother didn't compare and looked more digital / worse quality to me?

Overall, I love RED. I want to buy RED but would like some real feedback on these points before I do. I know a camera is just a tool, but I want the best tool for the best value and really need to understand the hype vs quality thing?

 

[Eric J Kosinski]

Hi Eric,

Do you understand the concept of RAW images at 4.5 K? This is lightning in a bottle that no other camera has at this time. There is no other camera with the Red One's combination of resolution and versatility in post (except for Epic). It's like shooting film - great latitude (especially with MX), and amazing options in post, assuming it was exposed properly - without the cost and hassle of film. And the price is right. What's not to like!

My MX has been extremely reliable. I would suggest you consider the SSD adapter. Workflow is very similar to film workflow, but much easier, because it's digital. Search for Mark Toia's tips on how simple it can be.

Tim Eaton

Thanks for the comments. I understand the concept, but I guess what I'm saying is why am I seeing other cameras look as good on the big screen or better if 4K Digital is that much different? Thanks again on the note for reliability. I was getting scared with all this hearsay about OVERHEATING issues.

 

[Steve Das]

....I already have accessories ready to purchase even before a camera, but I here so many things like overheating, etc, etc. I need to know about these things from real RED ONE and EPIC users . Please HELP?

Overheating is a total myth...this was just posted yesterday.

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?63017-RED-HISTORY&p=816061#post816061

On a side note, we heard that the cameras were over-heating in the 100+ degree heat of Spain on the 1st day. I actually posted as much as soon as I heard about it. They used ice packs to keep the cameras cool. I think everyone in the industry heard this story. What they didn't hear, even though I posted this info as well, is that the cameras didn't actually over-heat. We had set the warning 10C too low, so the alarm went off... but prematurely. Anyone who has shot a RED ONE knows that it is the least sensitive digital camera to heat ever made.

But you need to go to rental houses and test out some cameras for yourself to see what
you like...and what suits your workflow..projects and budget.
But there are alot more Red owner operators than Sony or Arri. Still decide for yourself.

 

[Bob Moore]

Eric,

I passed on the F3 after using a EX1R for over a year.... reason was seeing RAW at 300 fps. That and the reasonable advice of a couple of pro shooters ... Chris Barret and James Russell who are using used R1s.
Both have great experience with film and MF digital stills and have found nothing close to the RED.

My only fault of the F3 is Sony has crippled it with a marginal codec....no 442 444 to SxS. Sure spend another 10K and add 3 - 10 pounds of peripherals to the camera and you get HD sLog. Beautiful files but
what future in that? I used a NanoFlash on the EX1R and would imagine that only a PMW-500 would approach the level you would want. Still not RAW still not 4-4.5-5K.

Problems? Yes ... just spend time on the web and you will dispair - any topic.

James Russell has stated that his R1s are so reliable he is loathe to upgrade...be all over the world not heat problems no lost files.

Sony is wonderful...love the plastic. I really do...if it were not for the EX1R I would not be on this forum at the present time.

Sony will address 8K in the future...no one I know will be willing to pay for it.

Bob

 

[Eric J Kosinski]

Overheating is a total myth...this was just posted yesterday.

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?63017-RED-HISTORY&p=816061#post816061

But you need to go to rental houses and test out some cameras for yourself to see what
you like...and what suits your workflow..projects and budget.
But there are alot more Red owner operators than Sony or Arri. Still decide for yourself.

Thanks. That is good news. Overheating was my main concern for sure on hearsay. Renting is a good option, but with NO PRIOR experience (although I did buy the RED 101 DVD) I don't know if post will be smooth enough to really work with the footage. Is the footage something I Can edit and view from my Mac Pro (Dual Quad Core 2.66 , 16 GB RAM) ??

 

[Eston Diaz]

I think it all comes down to preference. The Zacuto Shoot Out will help look at some basic technical analysis. I'm a writer/director/actor. Technically: resolution and dynamic range are very important. But my final decision is how the picture makes me feel when I see it. Hands down Red provides a strong narrative depth when I see what it can produce. So artistically, to me, nothing really compares.

 

[Timothy Eaton]

if 4K really makes a difference on the big screen and IF SO, why does ALEXA footage look better (just as sharp, better dynamic range) in some recent films I've seen? For instance, My Poppers Penguins (ALEXA) had such a great feel to it (kids made me see it, lol) and looked good on resolution while My Idiot Brother didn't compare and looked more digital / worse quality to me?

1) There are many good choices in digital cameras today. Most on the Reduser list will say Alexa is a fine camera. Can you afford to own one? Can you afford to own one with a Codex box (to shoot ARRI RAW), and glass - somewhere areound $120K? If not, what are your choices? A used Red MX or an F3 - no brainer. 4K vs. HD, RAW vs. whatever F3 is recording to.

2) When you see a film in a theatre, you are not seeing a side by side test of footage shot under identical conditions and projected 4K. Your are seeing the end result of a thousand different choices made by different production teams, and projected at resolution (release print) of less than 2K.

3) Pick up a Blu-ray copy of Social Network or Pirates.

4) If you get a chance, see Red footage projected at 4K. It will absolutely spin your head around.

One last note. Because you are relatively inexperienced, there will be a steep learning curve with any camera. That's not because of having to learn which buttons to push. It's about having to learn how light looks and feels and how cameras respond under a thousand different situations. Why don't you get your feet wet by renting an MX (or borrowing from a generous friend), or visiting one of the events at Red. By all means don't succumb to the anti-Red hype that's going around in some circles. It's BS.

Tim Eaton

 

[sander kamp]

It all depends on how you use the camera and what for. There are things like dynamic range, color, resolution, workflow, over cranking, weight, size, rentability, status and so on and everybody you talk to will have a different opinion depending on how they use the camera. Best would be to rent each camera for a day and shoot something and then see how you edit it and grade it.

My Red One (MX) has been rock solid and never broke down on the set. There's been the occasional hiccup that went away with a firmware upgrade but in more than three years that only cost me only one rental day and actually we fixed it on the set. Yes, if you shoot in the tropics it gets hot but there's ways to take care of that, just like you take care of people and everything else. I haven't heard anything around me of Red One cameras breaking down, in fact the only times I heard about it was on this forum which might give the wrong impression since people don't post all the time that their camera is still working fine.

Working with Red files is not difficult, just download RedCine-X and open up your red files, even on a modest laptop you can still play back at 1/8 resolution. For editing you can do a transcode for FCP or edit with the raw files in Adobe Premiere. And for grading there's DaVinci Resolve and even the free version will open up your files just fine and give access to all R3D settings.

 

[Eric J Kosinski]

1) There are many good choices in digital cameras today. Most on the Reduser list will say Alexa is a fine camera. Can you afford to own one? Can you afford to own one with a Codex box (to shoot ARRI RAW), and glass - somewhere areound $120K? If not, what are your choices? A used Red MX or an F3 - no brainer. 4K vs. HD, RAW vs. whatever F3 is recording to.

2) When you see a film in a theatre, you are not seeing a side by side test of footage shot under identical conditions and projected 4K. Your are seeing the end result of a thousand different choices made by different production teams, and projected at resolution (release print) of less than 2K.

3) Pick up a Blu-ray copy of Social Network or Pirates.

4) If you get a chance, see Red footage projected at 4K. It will absolutely spin your head around.

One last note. Because you are relatively inexperienced, there will be a steep learning curve with any camera. That's not because of having to learn which buttons to push. It's about having to learn how light looks and feels and how cameras respond under a thousand different situations. Why don't you get your feet wet by renting an MX (or borrowing from a generous friend), or visiting one of the events at Red. By all means don't succumb to the anti-Red hype that's going around in some circles. It's BS.

Tim Eaton

Maybe I should have been a little more clear in my explanation; I"m far from inexperienced with production, technology, etc. However, I am very inexperienced with RED however since i haven't used it yet hands on.

I actually own a production company, film gear company www.cineZENUSA.com, I have a 4 year film degree, been working in production (mostly commercial video, pharmaceutical, documentary, mixed martial arts videos, etc) for over 15 years, I have DP'd short films on Super 16mm, as well as worked briefly on 35mm and I'm preparing for an Oct workshop as a Steadicam Op with Garrett Brown's school in PA. I owned several HVX 200s, Canon XHA1s, Sony EX1, etc, and a slew of Canon DSLR gear. I understand dynamic range, resolution, post production (FCP) etc, etc.

Now, what I do NOT understand (well looking for someone to explain further) is how 4K/(5K) is supposed to be the best quality for digital media and there is a lot of hype on these cameras, but I'm seeing visually lower resolution cameras show better reels AND BETTER FOOTAGE. I'm not talking amateurs not posting good, but major Hollywood films that look videoy' compared to an organic look of Alexa and even the Sony F3. That being said, I love RED equipment, concept, and the family of people to support RED, so I do want to be a part of it.

WHAT I DO WANT TO KNOW if someone can explain is whether the RED really stacks up against these other cameras, and if the RED ONE specifically will be a valid camera to purchase for some time. Any help would be great. Thanks.

BTW< thanks for the valid points. I should get my feet wet with the REDUCATION or rental option. That seems to maybe be the best option. It is appreciated that this forum offers so many helpful tips in such a short amount of time. Seems that there is a good organization behind the platform of RED as well. Thanks again

 

[Eric J Kosinski]

I think it all comes down to preference. The Zacuto Shoot Out will help look at some basic technical analysis. I'm a writer/director/actor. Technically: resolution and dynamic range are very important. But my final decision is how the picture makes me feel when I see it. Hands down Red provides a strong narrative depth when I see what it can produce. So artistically, to me, nothing really compares.

That brings up another point. Zacutos shootout looked to lack dynamic range on the red one mx How do actual Red One uses look at the Zacuto shootout with red one footage vs the others

 

[Timothy Eaton]

Maybe I should have been a little more clear in my explanation; I"m far from inexperienced with production, technology, etc. However, I am very inexperienced with RED however since i haven't used it yet hands on.

Sorry Eric. I didn't mean to shortchange your experience.

With respect to how the films shot by various cameras look in theaters, check my post above. You are comparing apples and oranges. The only real test is to shoot the same material side by side, and then project it. Try to see if a local rental house will let you do a half day test.

Tim Eaton

 

[Eston Diaz]

That brings up another point. Zacutos shootout looked to lack dynamic range on the red one mx How do actual Red One uses look at the Zacuto shootout with red one footage vs the others

The shoot out kept everything very raw. Which I think was fair. But once again I think it comes down to preference. If you have a full studio and want to spend 2 to 3 times more then by all means do it. I do agree with Tim, get your hands on an R1 and/or Epic, and see how you feel about it.

Phillip Bloom the "former" dslr evangelist and later Sony F3 evangelist flipped his script once he got his hands on an Epic. For me, I like the small size, about the same as a DSLR, the resolution, the dynamic range is more than enough for my purposes. The whole Godfather epic was crucified for being too dark, but... that is what they wanted.

I also like plugging into a pc and/or laptop and getting the job done.

Download the latest Redcine-x Pro, obtain some raw red footage, and play with that, that will help you feel out the footage and workflow in post. This is what sold me. Raw R3D and Resolution. Then if you need to, rent one and see how you feel.

I feel that I do see a difference with 4K/5K resoluton in post and final renders. I utilize a lot of special effects, and the high resolution is a God send, in addition to the fact that you will always lose some res in post.

All the science and color charts are cool, but it still basically comes down to what you feel when you see the footage. If its an iphone, a Red, or an Alexa, roll with what works for you.

 

[Paul S.]

Do you understand the concept of RAW images at 4.5 K? This is lightning in a bottle that no other camera has at this time. There is no other camera with the Red One's combination of resolution and versatility in post (except for Epic). It's like shooting film - great latitude (especially with MX), and amazing options in post, assuming it was exposed properly - without the cost and hassle of film.

This is what I'd say is the key factor. To help you understand, get a few R3D files, fire them up in redcine and then play around and see what you can do with them once principle photography is just a memory... you will be impressed.

 

[Eston Diaz]

I have a saying with my fellow filmaker friends in our endless debate over the whole Red line up. They argue and argue, which is pointless cause I never asked them to buy a Red, but anyway. I always settle the argument like this.

"In film, Content is King, Resolution and Raw R3D is Queen, all else are Jesters" :coolgleamA:

 

[Bob Minervini]

Well Eric J, to answer your queries: from my humble experience as AC first and now DOP on countless adds, infomercials etc. my conclusion is this: the RedOne Camera was in preparation for Epic. Epic is the one you should choose. Skin tones are finally what you'd want to see from a professional camera. It must be the 16bit processing, but hey, man these images look gorgeous. The RedOne was good, but had it's flows. Thus when comparing Red to the rest, nowdays you should be really talking Epic. Thus just be a bit more patient and get in line for one. I'm sure there will be soon Epic X being sold second hand. Best of Luck with your buy. BM

 

[Eric J Kosinski]

Sorry Eric. I didn't mean to shortchange your experience.

With respect to how the films shot by various cameras look in theaters, check my post above. You are comparing apples and oranges. The only real test is to shoot the same material side by side, and then project it. Try to see if a local rental house will let you do a half day test.

Tim Eaton

No worries; I just wanted to be clear where my knowledge base is. I was able to find a post on vimeo.com last night which compared 6 cameras including the RED ONE vs several including the Alexa, 35mm film, etc. It was very clear that the RED had an obvious advantage in resolution when zoomed in to 200%. It was a major difference that was hard to tell at normal viewing. This must be a huge advantage for future higher resolution projectors