red one with denecke

[fatfatjames]

Hi i have a problem with denecke sb2a timecode box with the red... what happen is that the red in build 20 and 21 refuse to power up when the timecode box is connected to the camera... the lcd on the rear will just keep blinking and refuse to start... the only way round it is to unplug the cable to start the camera, after which the box can then connect to the camera... no problem jamming the camera, but just the starting up of the camera... Can anyone help?

 

[Alex Carr]

You don't really need to carry the lock-it on the camera at all times. You simply need to connect the cable for 1-2 seconds and remove and repeat for every battery change, or use a Hotswap plate so you don't power down.

 

[fatfatjames]

is this problem a common problem with red?

 

[Alex Carr]

What problem? Trying to plug too many things into the Camputer? Its common sense that you don't boot your PC with 50 things plugged in.

However I can count several dozen times the sound guy made me keep it on the camera, and I never encountered this issue during startup. But if so, this is not a major problem merely a minor inconvenience.

 

[fatfatjames]

well the camera team is thinking that it is a big issue and the small sound department is always to be blame

 

[Alex Carr]

I would think its a camera problem, I used two denecke's yesterday on two cameras. Never took them off or unplugged them. The other possibility it that your cable could be shorting a connection inside the LEMO. Or the cable isn't wired properly.

Try getting a New LEMO cable, New Denecke box, and New Red camera. Or just new Denecke and Cable, then you would know if it is the Camera or not.

Tell the camera dept to exchange their body, or try the lock-it on another camera. Or even better ask them to pull the Lens off and look into the mount. If there are 4 gold pins at the top of the mount then the audio board has been upgraded. If not, then the audio board is the original that Red started with.

I avoid these un-upgraded cameras because I have problems with sound every time. The cables used to have a resistor in them, and the new audio board doesn't require a resistor at all. Think of what I have to do because one camera is upgraded and one is not. Or the rental house has no idea what I'm talking about and sends me out with 6-7 random cables where no one knows if the resistor exists or not and I cannot get a L+R channel with tone to fall at or even near the same levels

 

[Matthew Riggieri]

James

This is a common issue. I have seen it many times with old and new sound boards. We just learned to not turn the camera on with the TC Box plugged in. Does not matter the make of the TC box, has happened wit a wireless audio transmitter and lock-it box. Does not happen with every body, just some.

Alex
You statement about not really needing a lockit box is incorrect. I don't know if you have ever tried to sync dual system sound with the Red, but the internal clock in the Red is horrible. Will loose a 1 or 2 frame sync with an external source over the course of an hour. I highly recommend the Lock-it Boxes for any dual system setup, unless you enjoy doing a manual sound sync. We have completed the dailies routine on a couple long form projects and the lock-it boxes save us hours of time.

Cheers
Matt Riggieri
Local 600 DIT
Digital Cave Media

 

[Alex Carr]

James

This is a common issue. I have seen it many times with old and new sound boards. We just learned to not turn the camera on with the TC Box plugged in. Does not matter the make of the TC box, has happened wit a wireless audio transmitter and lock-it box. Does not happen with every body, just some.

Alex
You statement about not really needing a lockit box is incorrect. I don't know if you have ever tried to sync dual system sound with the Red, but the internal clock in the Red is horrible. Will loose a 1 or 2 frame sync with an external source over the course of an hour. I highly recommend the Lock-it Boxes for any dual system setup, unless you enjoy doing a manual sound sync. We have completed the dailies routine on a couple long form projects and the lock-it boxes save us hours of time.

Cheers
Matt Riggieri
Local 600 DIT
Digital Cave Media

I've auto-synced lots of Dual system Sound for dailies / Offline Files / etc.. I couldn't imagine syncing manually again,

Its really not needed on the Camera, and I've adjusted frame offset before on the recorder to manage the Sync, because its not really drifting... I've seen plenty of locked footage at the end of the day... AND before lunch. Some camera's will always a take a jam and interpret it as being 1-2 frames off. It Never had a chance to drift, we are shooting cards I check TC on every clip.

If it drifts like you say it does, why does every clip have consistent TC throughout the day? I rarely see a drift and I watch it like hawk. The only time it drifts is when you have not recorded for a few minutes and you are watching TC on the onboard monitor vs. the slate. The camera re-interprets the Jam on every Rec-Run, whether there is a lock-it connected or not. The only way to check this is by looking at the slate in RedAlert! or Quicktime and referencing the two TC, Bu the camera immediately looses the Jam as its powered down.

However I've worked with Cameras that interpreted the Jam differently, one would be 1 frame off, the other two frames or none.

I just did a job with two cameras dual system, two lock-its NO ISSUES, NO Drift, I didnt have a 2nd AC so I kept the lock-it on the camera during boot-ups.

 

[Yean Loon]

Well, after some troubleshooting with James at my place, (actually, i was really fixing my faulty pipe while he took my Red and mucked around with it), he seems to have discovered the problem.

Apparently, the signal coming out form the SB-2A is too 'hot' for the Red timecode board to handle.

James fed the timecode signal from the SB-2A into his Diva Fusion Mixer. From there, he sent the timecode out into the Red. He noticed that any level above -10db going into the Red timecode board, the camera would not boot up. And any level below -20db, the camera would power up but would not detect the timecode (no 'golden' genlock chain appears on the lcd/evf screen). Only by putting the level between -10db and -20db would the camera power up as per normal and by jam-synced.

So James is saying the camera does not like the timecode signal to be too 'hot'. His proposed solution is to step down the signal coming out from the SB-2A. His plan next is to solder a resistor onto the output of the SB-2A.

Results to come.....

Yean

 

[Paul Leeming]

Interesting info Yean Loon! Look forward to the results. Maybe if it can be replicated there might be a market for an inline resistor?

 

[Marc Wielage]

Apparently, the signal coming out form the SB-2A is too 'hot' for the Red timecode board to handle.

A simple pad will fix this. Any pro audio house can make or sell a ready-made cable that will knock the level down out of distortion.

BTW, the Denecke SB-T is a better box, given that it provides tri-level sync (genlock) and timecode. Some of the SB-2A's out there are pretty old.

 

[James Choong]

here is what Charlie told me to do... 1k resistor to signal and 6.8k to ground, and it work beautifully... also i found out that there is a missing resistor when i open the box up (my box is a 2nd hand one), so Charlie told me to put a 10k resistor on the R6 slot, after this fix i should no longer need the 1k and 6.8k fix... will post result soon...

 

[JonathanF]

Alex
You statement about not really needing a lockit box is incorrect. I don't know if you have ever tried to sync dual system sound with the Red, but the internal clock in the Red is horrible. Will loose a 1 or 2 frame sync with an external source over the course of an hour. I highly recommend the Lock-it Boxes for any dual system setup, unless you enjoy doing a manual sound sync. We have completed the dailies routine on a couple long form projects and the lock-it boxes save us hours of time.

Cheers
Matt Riggieri
Local 600 DIT
Digital Cave Media

Matt,

You are very right about this. The clocks are a mess on the current camera. Hopefully they are paying closer attention to this on Epic.

Anyone shooting 3D will tell you how truly horrible this is, though you may want to engage your profanity filter before you ask

J

 

[Mike Gross]

Matt,

You are very right about this. The clocks are a mess on the current camera. Hopefully they are paying closer attention to this on Epic.

Anyone shooting 3D will tell you how truly horrible this is, though you may want to engage your profanity filter before you ask

J

I shoot 3d or double system (or both) all the time with no sync problems. Just have to make the setup is right. Right cables, lockit, genlock, keep the batteries fresh and it's golden. Probably shot with about 20 different reds and all behaved the same.

The most problems I've had is with bad lockits/denekes or bad TC slates from rental companies where the gear was totally beat up.

 

[JonathanF]

I shoot 3d or double system (or both) all the time with no sync problems. Just have to make the setup is right. Right cables, lockit, genlock, keep the batteries fresh and it's golden. Probably shot with about 20 different reds and all behaved the same.

The most problems I've had is with bad lockits/denekes or bad TC slates from rental companies where the gear was totally beat up.

You are doing it right.. I assume you leave the lockit boxes on the camera.

Every time we're removed the lockit boxes we see drift of 1-3 frames by the time the batteries are dead.

 

[Mike Gross]

You are doing it right.. I assume you leave the lockit boxes on the camera.

Every time we're removed the lockit boxes we see drift of 1-3 frames by the time the batteries are dead.

When I need less weight I don't use the lockits on the body.
usually we're using the hot swap plates and running for half a day
and never see drift. We do see maybe 1 frame off occasionally but that's
because timecode in general is not shutter/phase locked.