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Red One - What do I need?

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Eric Wescott

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I'm looking to put together a quote for my school in an attempt to get a Red One for student use. Since I've never used one I have a few questions on what I need to get one up and running..

MEDIA:
First, I don't see a RED-DRIVE anymore? So the RED STATION REDMAG 2.5".. Does this mean I can just insert any 2.5" SATA hard drive? SSD or spinning? Or do I need to make sure it meets some other specs?

What's the purpose of the RED STATION BASE? Just to allow multiple REDMAG/Compact Flash to be used in conjunction? ie auto switching when one fills up w/o cutting? That sort of thing?


DISPLAYS:
The specs say it can output HDMI. Does that mean I can use our existing monitors? Do they require a specific resolution to function? Or must the primary display be HD-SDI?

RAILS/CASE
Any cheaper alternatives exist than the base production pack? It's going to be a hard to sell the school on a $1300 for a rail setup and a $600 case. I know these are actually reasonable prices but if there are any cheap (even DIY) solutions that I could go with now and then in the future get more funds for rails/cases..

Last, Just to make sure I have this right.. What i need to get up and running is
BASE
MEDIA - RED STATION CF or REDMAG
POWER - Charger+batteries
DISPLAY - VF or LCD
RAILS
LENS

Anything else I should be aware of?

Thanks
Eric
 
Eric,

RED Drive is no longer produced. You can use 16gig CF cards (or 8gig).

Station Base is to cut down on the cables - it is not a requirement.

If you are on a tight budget, I would get a stills lens adapter so you can use Canon, Nikon, Contax or a number of other good quality lenses.

The only thing missing from your list is a tripod and of course a script ;)

good luck!
 
I have seen this before and it usually does not work out. How do you plan on teaching this camera with out knowing it your self. I think things like this give RED a bad name. The school I used to go to did the same thing and they bought a RED camera and had no idea how to use it and got the most basic setup. The teacher was frustrated they had no idea about the work flow and it made it impossible for them to use. The students just thought it was an impossible camera to work with and they gave up on it thinking it was too advanced or did not work properly.
 
Martin Ubilluz said:
I have seen this before and it usually does not work out. How do you plan on teaching this camera with out knowing it your self. I think things like this give RED a bad name. The school I used to go to did the same thing and they bought a RED camera and had no idea how to use it and got the most basic setup. The teacher was frustrated they had no idea about the work flow and it made it impossible for them to use. The students just thought it was an impossible camera to work with and they gave up on it thinking it was too advanced or did not work properly.
Click to expand...

I understand your concern but we are purchasing for a student organization. Specifically one dedicated to film making. We will learn to use this camera. I will personally be using it as much as I can. I consider myself a pretty tech savvy person (I'm majoring in Film and Computer Science) and would love to learn all the ins and outs of this camera. Obviously I don't know them now but everyone has to start somewhere..

I don't have access to one to play with. I don't have the money to purchase or even rent one. Red.com isn't exactly the most informative web site if you've never actually used a digital cinema camera before. Our school has equipment but it's all consumer/prosumer level like the Canon XHA1. I can't be expected to know everything about the Red without doing research. This is my attempt to do such research.

The grant I'm working with is awarded once a semester so I'm attempting to keep it as low as possible and still get a "working" camera. I simply can not afford to get everything in one purchase. It's going to be a tough sell as it is but it's going to be next to impossible if I tell them they have to spend $25,000 for a camera that won't be functional until they cough up another $XX,000 next semester to buy X modules.

I will most likely get some money but it's very unlikely I will get the full amount I ask for. So I need to find any alternatives Can I find a cheaper 3rd party/DIY rail system? Can I find a cheaper case? Do I have to use the HD-SDI connection for my primary display/viewfinder? Or can I just plug in any HDMI compatible LCD and use the camera? Those seem like three areas where I can cut costs if I absolutely had to. Don't get me wrong I would love to just purchase all official RED equipment for ease of use and compatibility but that just might not be possible.

I am still confused about the REDMAG module. Can I just use any 2.5" (SATA I assume) hard drive? SSD or spinning? I remember seeing a Red Drive in the past that consisted of a raid-0 array so I wasn't sure if just any 2.5" HD is fast enough to write to. Are there specific specs I need to know when purchasing these hard drives to use in this module.
 
Cheap way to go is Long Valley 15mm rails that screw directly into the front of the camera, then get a nice 15mm MatteBox from Cinevate, and Cinevate follow focus - best follow focus deal on the planet! You'll have something light, that just works.
 
Rob Ruffo said:
Cheap way to go is Long Valley 15mm rails that screw directly into the front of the camera, then get a nice 15mm MatteBox from Cinevate, and Cinevate follow focus - best follow focus deal on the planet! You'll have something light, that just works.
Click to expand...

Thanks! I'll look into those rod support setups. MatteBox and Follow Focus I'm considering as luxury items right now. I would absolutely love to have them but we can make due without them for now.
 
Martin Weiss said:
Eric,

RED Drive is no longer produced. You can use 16gig CF cards (or 8gig).

Station Base is to cut down on the cables - it is not a requirement.

If you are on a tight budget, I would get a stills lens adapter so you can use Canon, Nikon, Contax or a number of other good quality lenses.

The only thing missing from your list is a tripod and of course a script ;)

good luck!
Click to expand...

8/16gig CF cards don't feel like a viable option to me. That's just not enough space. Can I use any 2.5" SATA drive with the REDMAG? Does it have to be SSD? Are there very specific specs?

Unfortunately I don't really have access to any decent lens. Right now I'd probably just get like the 17-50mm or 18-85mm to start and over time start collecting a nice set of primes.

My personal tripod (head rated to 18lbs) I suspect might not do the job since the body alone is 10lbs... Not sure what a typical red rig weighs but I have access to some nice ones at school that should do the trick.

If I'm lucky I get the funds to purchase what I need directly from red.com 's store but if not.. I'm going to attempt to cut corners on rails, case and lens.. Know any cheaper alternatives for these items?
 
Hi Eric,

It appears your budget is only 25 grand. I hate to rain on the parade but a new red lists for that. I would take Martin's advice and go with the still glass until you can afford whatever would be appropriate. If you had to go with one lens the 17-50 will get you a lot of bang for your buck. The raid drive will be your biggest hurdle at this point. Your tripod head sounds very marginal and if you do go with the 18-85 is will not suffice. For now to save money go with screw in filters, rack focus on the barrel and a zoom stick. If you do you may be able to get away with your own sticks. I say go for it, no regrets and don't look back.

p
 
Peter Strietmann said:
Hi Eric,

It appears your budget is only 25 grand. I hate to rain on the parade but a new red lists for that. I would take Martin's advice and go with the still glass until you can afford whatever would be appropriate. If you had to go with one lens the 17-50 will get you a lot of bang for your buck. The raid drive will be your biggest hurdle at this point. Your tripod head sounds very marginal and if you do go with the 18-85 is will not suffice. For now to save money go with screw in filters, rack focus on the barrel and a zoom stick. If you do you may be able to get away with your own sticks. I say go for it, no regrets and don't look back.

p
Click to expand...

Sorry to confuse everyone but my budget is not $25,000. I just was giving an example. The policy is right now is ask exactly what I want and it's a negotiation process for the final budget. I KNOW I won't get exactly what I ask for so I'm aiming high and hoping they cut money where I can find cheaper alternatives.

Something along the lines of I need $40,000 for this that and the other.. They say... Well you can have 25 for this, 5 for that and 5 for other. So if I play my cards right I can find alternatives for the areas I don't receive my asking amount. It's kinda a goofy process so I'm just looking for useful alternatives.

My worst fear they cut me way down and I have to get a 5D Mark II and lots of goodies for it. I'd really like to get us a RED though. I think it would be a big step in the right direction for our production club. Gotta aim high I guess :)
 
The RED station components you see listed at the RED store: the RED station base, RED station compact flash, RED Station REDmag 1.8" and RED station REDmag 2.5" are for offloading media to your computer.

Currently, the only media RED sells is the 16 GB CF cards, which you use with the RED CF module attached to the camera.

At some point in the future, you will be able to replace the CF module on the camera with a 1.8" SSD module, and purchase 1.8" REDmags, which use a proprietary connection.
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=648172#post648172

The 2.5" module will use off-the-shelf hard drives, but you will not attach them to the camera. You will just use them to store footage that was shot on CF cards or 1.8" REDmags.

If you need more storage than the 16GB CF cards, and you can't wait for the 1.8" REDmags to arrive at some undetermined point in the future, your best best would be to purchase a used RED Drive. The RED Drive is a RAID array of two spinning laptop hard drives. RED Drives were made initially in 320GB and later 640GB versions.
RED%20DRIVE%20%28320GB%29.png
 
Will be hard to get a used RED RAID right now. They are very sought after, and those who have one hold it very tight…

Get CF and a fast FW-800 reader, that's the cheapest solution.

For monitoring most good computer screens are OK, but many video monitors don't like the pure progressive signal via HDMI.

I know how stupid such organizations can be, it's like applying for a car, and then they say, well, OK, here it is, but do you really need wheels right from the start?

Since a good lens is a one of the most expensive items, why don't you apply for a serious one and save on that (using photo lenses or the small zoom) if they cut you down?
A good tripod is essential, but they can be bought second hand.
 
If I were outfitting a barebones R1 MX outfit this is the minimum I'd consider acceptable...

R1MX $25,000
CF module $500 (Currently no SSD option shipping)
Element Technica Lightweight support $240
Nikon Mount $500 (Unless you have PL mount glass available)
3x 16GB CF cards $900
ET top rod mount $250
Red top handle $150
Red Battery belt clip $290
Red Power Pack $1450
*Marshall V-LCD50 $516
Noga arm $120

Total: $30,000ish

*This Marshall has HDMI input, I believe you can switch the HDMI output of the R1 to display the menus on this output so this AA battery powered monitor would be your cheapest option.
 
Stephen Strangways said:
The 2.5" module will use off-the-shelf hard drives, but you will not attach them to the camera. You will just use them to store footage that was shot on CF cards or 1.8" REDmags.
Click to expand...

Okay, now I'm really confused... The 2.5" REDMag uses off the shelf 2.5" hard drives for storage.. However it's too slow to record to and is only uses as a backup unit for the REDCF?

Yet, the coming soon REDmag 1.8" will allow direct recording?

So, if I have two REDCFs and a REDMAG 2.5" Will it auto dump the CF currently not being used to the REDMag so I don't have to manually do it? Or are you pretty much limited to swapping out CFs after you fill one?

I know the old RED-DRIVE was a raid0 array but I dunno any of the specs on how fast it is writing to it.. So if we get 2.5" SATA drivers in the future fast (SSD I assume) enough can we look forward to using the REDMAG 2.5" as a storage media? Or did they disable that feature int he hardware to sell there 1.8" stuff?

I guess this is all moot at this point as I have at least six months before I get my funding and most of this stuff will be resolved (i hope) by then..
 
REDMag 2.5" will not be used as recording media. It will only be used to dump your CF or 1.8" SSD media onto. And it won't do it automatically. You will need the CF or 1.8" SSD Red Station Module and a computer to offload onto the 2.5" module. So, forget about the 2.5" REDMag for now.

The 1.8" SSD Module for Red One costs $1500. And the REDMag 1.8" SSD's are a bit expensive if you are on a really tight budget (seems you are). Besides, you don't really need the extra speed of SSD on a Red One.

That is why you should go with a used Red Drive or some Red CF cards with the Red Station CF Module.
 
The REDmags should be available in six months time. The 2.5" won't be used on the camera because it is simply too big to be mounted on the camera.

For the time being, keep these thoughts in mind:

1) I think it could be beneficial to limit your students to working with a bunch of CF cards that only record 10-12 minutes each, or small REDmags, as that will teach them to be disciplined in their shooting, rather than rolling neverending takes and simply piling up footage.

2) Whether it is CF cards or REDmags, don't expect you'll be able to purchase cheap off-the-shelf media and record to that. RED cameras record a massive amount of data, and most off-the-shelf media simply can't keep up, or isn't reliable enough to trust irreplaceable footage to.

3) Whatever you purchase in RED recording media is temporary storage. You won't archive things by sticking your RED media on the shelf. You'll shoot to RED media and then download it through a computer to cheaper and slower off-the-shelf media, then edit from and archive that.
 
Eric I would suggest a fluid head rated at at least 30lbs. the o'connor 1030 is a probably the most popular. It'll last you. You should read up on what type of rods system/standard you want.
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7913.
You could just buy the red bottom cradle and buy your own rods and that would be cheaper. Battery mounting would be an issue, pick up a red cradle used perhaps? should be under a grand I'd say.
Also You can get a decent pelican 1620 case with pick and pull foam for about 250.

On a budget the 18-50mm can get you pretty far, but a nikon mount would be much more versatile for less I would think. Lots of people use Ai-s primes with good results. 8GB CF cards will save you lots of money, cheap 3rd party readers can be used to transfer data to computers. If anything shooting on CF cards is akin to shooting on film and having to reload reels.

If you can source a mysterium sensor red used. You can save money there as well. On a mysterium sensor, (not mysterium x) you could get a fairly fleshed out indie package for about a little less than 30k I'd say.

I came from a film school that couldnt even grasp the concept of HD all that well. I think your students deserve RED. It's very doable, have students throw fundraisers for additional accessories, if you have to. I think they'd be more than willing.
 
Eric,

You may want to think about renting a camera and purchasing the back-end edit hardware and software to process the R3D's.
Most Red owners will be happy to show you the best configurations for post production while you are getting familiar with the camera package you are renting from them!

Dave
 
Ditto for the O'Connor 1030. We have the HDS model and love it. Perfect for a RED with smaller lenses.

Stephen
 
Why not buy a full, secondhand Mysterium-X kit ready to shoot? That will save any anguish over backordered parts etc and the owner more than likely has already hashed out the relevant questions you're asking.

Just jump in the Buy/Sell subforum and ask for package offers and prices (and location if you want to purchase locally).

As an example, here's our full camera kit (minus any lenses). To buy this new, would cost you in the order of US$38,000 and you'd have to add shipping, taxes and any backorder issues to the final cost (in time and money):

IMG_6625b_framed_sRGB_25.jpg


So if you were looking to spend say a grand total of US$40,000 including lenses, then purchasing some Canon stills lenses and this kit second-hand (it's not for sale, just giving an example) would cover you pretty successfully and have you instantly up and running with a proven shooting kit.

Food for thought hopefully....

HTH

Paul
 
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